Is Michelle Kwan overrated

[bardtoob]

So I entered here expecting the usual Kwan hysteria but find Bobek hating , Asada-bot accusations and the everlasting Yags vs Plushy drama.. Michelle has outdone herself!!

Kwaniacs have about 5 more years of experience at this than the others

 

[bardtoob]

Haha yeah. Went from is Kwan overrated to is everyone in the history of this sport overrated? Was Madge Syers overrated?

Well, was she a "household name"? . . . I never saw Madge Syers on a bubble gum card. How can you say somebody is great if they were never on a bubble gum card? . . .

 

[Aussie Willy]

Haha yeah. Went from is Kwan overrated to is everyone in the history of this sport overrated? Was Madge Syers overrated?

Madge Syers was totally robbed by Ulrich Salchow at the 1902 Worlds. He only won because he had a jump named after him. Even T.D. Richardson, the Phil Hersch of the day, thought she should have won.

 

[kwanette]

Thought this quote was relevant to this thread as well.

 

[kwanette]

[QUOTE="slipchuk, post: She was generally regarded as a somewhat overscored skater. She had some controversial wins or medals- 95 Lalique over Butyrskaya, 96 worlds over Chen, 99 world silver where most had her 8th or 9th in the short, 2000 Nationals over Cohen, 2000 and 2001 Skate America over Hughes, 2002 Olympic bronze over Cohen (to some). While atleast not to my memory ever having had a controversial loss. This is in contrast to say Yu Na Kim who had many controversial losses- 2008 Worlds, 2011 Worlds, the biggest in skating history probably at the 2014 Olympics..

While I think Michelle skated well in 1996 Worlds. I believe Lu Chen should have won Worlds in 1996 because of superior artistic expression for a truly classic performance in the LP and yet she lost this artistic mark because in my view the competition was held in the US, China has weaker backing in general made more of a disadvantage by the competition being in the US, and I believe Michelle Kwan received extra marks for consistency going into the competition that was separate from actual performance. Mao should have won by more points in 2008 Worlds. Dick Button can be clearly heard saying that Yuna Kim's triple salchow in LP was a ur (cheat was the word he used), yet she received no ur call. Yet , in the replay, it only had 2 air rotations, while Mao received a ur call on her backend 3F / 3L in the LP that Dick Button did not even mention in his commentary. And 64 points for Mao's great SP was underscored.
As for as controversial win at Sochi, a look at rink coverage and jump placement, which is a great indicator of skating skills and speed, showed that in the LP Mao had by far the most, Carolina was second, and Adelina and Yuna Kim were close but well behind Mao and Carolina in coverage and expansive jump placement. While Adelina received generous tech calls, so did Yuna Kim who in addition had 4 points lower tech base than Adelina, Carolina also got fairly advantageous calls. So, I don't see the huge controversy in Yuna Kim's scoring. Mao was the one held down in tech and PCS so as not to threaten potential medalists in the final group, which was a similar technique used against Mao at 2014 Worlds to normalize the deflated Sochi LP scores.[/QUOTE]


Don't tell the Canadians.

 

[LarrySK8]

MK is not overrated. Other than a reference to the large numbers of US and World titles she won - her skating is not referenced all that often as a benchmark for excellence. She was a 6.0 skater. She was one of the very best under this system.

 

[slipchuk]

Well any thread gotoschool enters is sure to be made about Asada and how she is the best jumper, spinner, footworker, artist, speed skater, interpreter of music, Olympian, World Champion, Asian, and European skater of all time, and how her flutz is still really the best lutz of all time as well. It could be a thread about Torvill & Dean vs Virtue & Moir and gotoschool would be arguing the real best dance team of Mao Asada since she was in the crowd and farted while blowing bubble gum that day, and it was really the most intricate and elegant overall dance performance of all time as it happened to occur during an ice dance event. There is no hope of a thread she/he/it enters staying on topic, regardless the topic.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Jason Brown has already done the fart thing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55AG5iKUr3o

Like this thread really but no-one has set a match to it yet.

 

[MAXSwagg]

It's very true that Mao consistently had more transitions and multidirectional skating than Yuna, who did something like 40-50 crossovers(!!!!!!) in a LP. And it also extends to why Yuna and Carolina and pretty much every other top lady regularly got the benefit of the doubt on PCS when they bombed (and lord knows Carolina has had numerous atomic bombs) and got 72+ for crap skates, when Mao for her best skates got over 70 in a LP, like, once I think. She didn't even get over 36 for her WR SP (which is still the standard, imo)...IN JAPAN!

Michelle is not over-rated, I don't think. Looking back, for me, she was far above the field when it came to what we now call program components, especially 1997-2002 period. The skating skills, the aplomb, the overall quality was just unmatched, and the general choreography and SUBSTANTIVE and MEANINGFUL program construction. Her credentials also speak for themselves. The only person who maybe rivals it is Mao, and they both had their Olympic disappointments. Michelle's consistency is also a thing to be marveled at, though I don't understand why she never increased her tech. Not even a measly 3T+3T? I had her winning in 1998 Oly but I see the argument for Tara, who did the extraordinarily difficult 3Lo+3Lo (even if they were very pre-rotated) and very difficult 3T+1Lo+3S, both in the second half. That is massive technical, even for today. Poor strategy on Michelle's team's part...

 

[VGThuy]

I wonder how Kwan's 1997-1998 season would have turned out had she not fractured her left toe at Skate Canada and was able to do the 3/3. Her team probably figured going clean and churning out 7 triples with two triple loops was enough to hold off Tara since if she went clean that would have been the hardest tech done by a ladies skater at the time. Of course, Tara had even harder tech. They probably thought Kwan had it in the presentation mark like at 1997 Worlds where Tara did a similar skate to her Nagano one (7 triples with the 3lo/3lo with the difference being a 2a/1lo/3s) and still lost the LP 6 judges to 3 to Kwan's 6 triple performance with a 3t/3t. I also remember reading that Kwan's practices at 1998 Nationals was not going well at all and nobody knew Kwan would pull off the skates that she did there, so they probably felt they had to play it safe and ensure a clean performance. A fall would have killed her chances under 6.0 unlike nowadays.

 

[slipchuk]

MAXSwaag, Mao never got the benefit of doubt when she bombed, LOL! Are you forgetting NHK 2012 when she totally bombed and did only 3 triples and won over a 7 triple Suzuki. Yeah she had a lead after the short but even with that. And everyone including the Eurosport commentators thought that particular decision was utterly absurd. I never recall Kim or perhaps even Kostner having a victory close to that controversial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOuaUMgFOcg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMMx3GIYKIY, Now cue gotoschool and her/his barrage of excuses why that result was absolutely right, or how I am supposably a Kim fanatic, Kostner fanatic, Ando fanatic, Rachel Flatt fanatic, or heaven forbid a Suzuki fanatic for even daring to suggest that (like clown Miki89 baselessly calling me a Kim fanboy just because I guess anyone who doesnt think Kwan is god or the best ever must be a huge Kim fan somehow, when I am not even a fan of Kim's, and in fact I like Asada imparticular more than Kim LOL!).

I love how Mao is suddenly being made into a victim of some sorts in this thread by a couple nutty fans when she clearly was never deprived of a major title or even medal she even semi arguably deserved, atleast Kwan has a case at the 98 Olympics even if most probably agreed with the result. Unlike Kwan, Mao doesnt even have another World or Olympic event outside her 3 wins you could even semi rationally try and argue she should have won. And the reason she didnt win even more big events was herself, she usually bombed when it mattered. The judges were set to hand her the 2007 worlds, 2009 worlds, and 2011 worlds, 2012 worlds, 2013 worlds, 2014 Olympics, all on a silver, or should I say golden platter in addition to the 2010 and 2014 worlds she already won. Basically every event but the 2010 Olympics, and she blew it with her own large and numerous mistakes each time. She also would have been the favorite for the 2006 Olympics and 2006 Worlds had she been able to skate, blame the age rules, not the judges, but I am sure Mao fanatics will find a way to blame the judges for that too. Of course her couple nutty fans of this friend who are apparently worst than the Kwaniacs at their worst probably think as long as she has less than four falls she should be etched in gold each time, but that is not the reality of how most see it.

 

[aftershocks]

Haha yeah. Went from is Kwan overrated to is everyone in the history of this sport overrated? Was Madge Syers overrated?

Sonja Henie is over-rated!

@lala lives in Plushendia land, a very happy country where subjects are never disappointed in their king...

 

[ranran]

I haven't seen any Hanyu videos with 31M views, but maybe there are. The whole point was that it's not about being prolific, but about having that x factor that makes people who have no interest in skating, from countries that have no figure skating presence, write philosophical essays under a facebook video. Hanyu has certainly got that capability also, although it's a bit different. Both Yuna and Hanyu contributed to an unprecedented cult following in their home countries and brought a whole new audience to the sport. With Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List or P&C you had people who'd never watched figure skating before and never will again being moved by their performance on a deep level. It's just a different kind of impact.
To get back to the topic, Kwan was a striking figure on the ice with rare, Audrey Hepburn/Jackie Kennedy levels of elegance and poise. Her sporting achievements were remarkable and her personality and style radiated. All stars are "overrated" in a way, because around them there are others who were almost as good and anonymous. We still love them

I always found it petty whenever people mention how many "Views", "Followers", "Likes" to argue how popular certain things are
when in this new age, weirdest, useless things can go viral once it caught on or being promoted enough.
Starr Andrews has 52M Views on Youtube and that video is not the level she is now but you can see the comments below, people were saying "this is the greatest skater ever" so...

On the topics, I think "overrated" is not questioning how excellent the athletes are but rather how the media/people trying too hard to shove down people throat in portraying how great certain stars are without people wanting to hear about it all the time or share the same opinion.

Like in Sochi Olympic, commentators keep bringing up Plushenko in EVERY SINGLE commentary of skaters saying things like "he must have felt privileged to skate on the same ice as Plushenko" or "sharing the ice with Plushenko will get you nervous a little" same with Michelle Kwan how commentator keep repeating over and over and over again how certain skaters don't have the grace of Kwan on ice or the legend of Michele Kwan etc. Sometimes striking figure are striking because they were hyped way too much than necessary. Once all this emphasized multiple time, even non-skater people will caught on and thought oh she is must be the best because she keep being mention over and over again. or He must be the favourite for Gold because that's all the media talk about.

Just like how they promoted songs nowadays, no matter how crappy the song is but because it was being played over 100 time per day on the radio, on every station people just caught on.

 

[MAXSwagg]

MAXSwaag, Mao never got the benefit of doubt when she bombed, LOL! Are you forgetting NHK 2012 when she totally bombed and did only 3 triples and won over a 7 triple Suzuki. Yeah she had a lead after the short but even with that. And everyone including the Eurosport commentators thought that particular decision was utterly absurd. I never recall Kim or perhaps even Kostner having a victory close to that controversial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOuaUMgFOcg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMMx3GIYKIY, Now cue gotoschool and her/his barrage of excuses why that result was absolutely right, or how I am supposably a Kim fanatic, Kostner fanatic, Ando fanatic, Rachel Flatt fanatic, or heaven forbid a Suzuki fanatic for even daring to suggest that (like clown Miki89 baselessly calling me a Kim fanboy just because I guess anyone who doesnt think Kwan is god or the best ever must be a huge Kim fan somehow, when I am not even a fan of Kim's, and in fact I like Asada imparticular more than Kim LOL!).

I love how Mao is suddenly being made into a victim of some sorts in this thread by a couple nutty fans when she clearly was never deprived of a major title or even medal she even semi arguably deserved, atleast Kwan has a case at the 98 Olympics even if most probably agreed with the result. Unlike Kwan, Mao doesnt even have another World or Olympic event outside her 3 wins you could even semi rationally try and argue she should have won. And the reason she didnt win even more big events was herself, she usually bombed when it mattered. The judges were set to hand her the 2007 worlds, 2009 worlds, and 2011 worlds, 2012 worlds, 2013 worlds, 2014 Olympics, all on a silver, or should I say golden platter in addition to the 2010 and 2014 worlds she already won. Basically every event but the 2010 Olympics, and she blew it with her own large and numerous mistakes each time. She also would have been the favorite for the 2006 Olympics and 2006 Worlds had she been able to skate, blame the age rules, not the judges, but I am sure Mao fanatics will find a way to blame the judges for that too. Of course her couple nutty fans of this friend who are apparently worst than the Kwaniacs at their worst probably think as long as she has less than four falls she should be etched in gold each time, but that is not the reality of how most see it.

2013 Worlds, are you kidding me?! Lol. And yes, she should’ve won 2007 Worlds. It’s more controversial to me that she DIDN’T. And do you mean bombs like Carolina consistently had and still had and was and is still held up. Yuna also benefited from grossly unbalanced valuations. Unless you’re like Scott Hamilton and think a 3Lz+3T isn’t more difficult than a 3A+3T. Though I do a agree most of those other times you mention Mao bombed herself out of those wins.

 

[chapis]

it is obvious that this slipchuk is a troll, first Michelle and now Mao is being bashed too. Mao being underscored especially in PCS is a fact, no doubt. Yuna has the medals, what is your problem? it bothers you that people are not talking about her all the time anymore? that´s life .

 

[chapis]

And about Yuzuru. I am mexican, I don´t know many fans of figure skating from my country but I have found some and some others from latinoamerica and It always turns out that they are Yuzru fans or they came to the sport after seeing him. And they are not random people who only watched a viral video, they are real fans of figure skating now.

 

[SHARPIE]

Thanks for the reports. We are watching this thread, feel free to report anything of note going forward.

 

[lala]

Sonja Henie is over-rated!

@lala lives in Plushendia land, a very happy country where subjects are never disappointed in their king...

@aftershocks In contrast, you are always unbiased and you know what is the art and what is the best for the figure skating! Hello, aftershocks!

 

[kittysk8ts]

OMG this thread. Hahaha. So many provocative posts. I think we are all feeling the stress of the impending OG?

PS: I have to say, seeing Michelle back on the ice lately has been really fun. Just lovely

 

[UGG]

Michelle is not overrated and if you have to write a really long post that probably took 2 hours of your time to convince others on a random message board that she is overrated because you like Yu Na Kim instead, you probably should seek mental help. Not kidding.

 

[slipchuk]

MAXSwaag, the 2007 Worlds result was certainly not controversial, nor wrong. I was never a fan of Ando and far prefer Asada and her skating to Andos but Asada had a giant short program mistake which cost her roughly 10 points, and in the long two two footed landings and one underotation which probably cost a minimum of 8 points total. It is silly to say she was thus robbed vs Ando skating two perfectly clean programs with a total of 10 triples and a triple lutz-triple loop in both. Asada got much higher PCS, and even higher GOE on her clean jumps (which she did not deserve in many cases) than Ando, so the judges could not have done anymore for her than they did and it still was not enough. Asada has most certainly not even arguably deserved any Olympic or World win she did not get, and her 2008 Worlds win is at best debated as many thought it should have gone to either Kim or Nakano (the crowd at that event certainly thought Nakano). Any of the minor PCS she has on occasion gotten has never denied her of a single important win or medal so it is just useless yarn spinning at the end of the day to complain.

UGG if you were capable of reading basic english you would note I said more than once I am not even a fan of Kim, and note I mentioned a ton of different skaters and not just Kim. If you search my posting history (if that is not too difficult a task for you) you would note I rarely talk about Kim at all. Nor do I dislike Kwan, I like atleast equally as much as Yu Na Kim, neither who is a favorite of mine, I love how you come to the ridiculous conclusion anyone who objectively thinks Kwan is overrated or not the almighty queen of the sport must be a Yu Na fangirl, ROTFL!!! Also for your information the opening post took me only 10 minutes to write and took very little thought, was incredibly easy to write as it was just relaying basic thoughts, perhaps you were thinking it would have taken you 2 hours to write and come up with which I can understand, but definitely not I.

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks In contrast, you are always unbiased and you know what is the art and what is the best for the figure skating! Hello, aftershocks!

Forget about the drinks! Give me some of what you're smokin' @lala land; sometimes it does feel good I suppose to live not in the real world. Remember, I only repeated back to you your own words, with no embellishments. So if none of it makes sense, take a look in the mirror.

You are the only one unbiased when it comes to you know who. As far as what's best for figure skating, this thread is so far afield, it's like an over-rated cross-word puzzle that can never be solved cuz half the pieces are missing.

Isn't Europeans happening already?! Quick hurry, the great Plushy might be there and appear on camera!

 

[lala]

Forget about the drinks! Give me some of what you're smokin' @lala land; sometimes it does feel good I suppose to live not in the real world. Remember, I only repeated back to you your own words, with no embellishments. So if none of it makes sense, take a look in the mirror.

You are the only one unbiased when it comes to you know who. As far as what's best for figure skating, this thread is so far afield, it's like an over-rated cross-word puzzle that can never be solved cuz half the pieces are missing.

Isn't Europeans happening already?! Quick hurry, the great Plushy might be there and appear on camera!

I don't say I'm not biased. I'm an uber! But I don't like if anybody denied it because she is also with other skater.
The ECH is started and I have seen Plushenko, of course. He skated with his son at opening ceremony. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=6OXO2g1ALuk

I didn't need to wait for him too long

and watched the men SP with his family
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeDW1RfBkcP/?taken-by=yokotanpe

 

[Eeyora1]

I wonder how Kwan's 1997-1998 season would have turned out had she not fractured her left toe at Skate Canada and was able to do the 3/3. Her team probably figured going clean and churning out 7 triples with two triple loops was enough to hold off Tara since if she went clean that would have been the hardest tech done by a ladies skater at the time. Of course, Tara had even harder tech. They probably thought Kwan had it in the presentation mark like at 1997 Worlds where Tara did a similar skate to her Nagano one (7 triples with the 3lo/3lo with the difference being a 2a/1lo/3s) and still lost the LP 6 judges to 3 to Kwan's 6 triple performance with a 3t/3t. I also remember reading that Kwan's practices at 1998 Nationals was not going well at all and nobody knew Kwan would pull off the skates that she did there, so they probably felt they had to play it safe and ensure a clean performance. A fall would have killed her chances under 6.0 unlike nowadays.

I always thought the stress fracture came into play in Nagano! i Always thought it looked like her foot was
Hurting. And you’re right about the triple triple. The toe was the jump that bothered her Foot. Therefore she wasn’t able regain the conistency.

 

[Polaris]

Well any thread gotoschool enters is sure to be made about Asada and how she is the best jumper, spinner, footworker, artist, speed skater, interpreter of music, Olympian, World Champion, Asian, and European skater of all time, and how her flutz is still really the best lutz of all time as well. It could be a thread about Torvill & Dean vs Virtue & Moir and gotoschool would be arguing the real best dance team of Mao Asada since she was in the crowd and farted while blowing bubble gum that day, and it was really the most intricate and elegant overall dance performance of all time as it happened to occur during an ice dance event. There is no hope of a thread she/he/it enters staying on topic, regardless the topic.

Finally someone said it! LOLZ for days.

 

[shady82]

I can't believe a "is Kwan overrated" topic comes up annually and always bursts with comments. Why is this topic always so in, regardless of the year?

 

[Fiero425]

I can't believe a "is Kwan overrated" topic comes up annually and always bursts with comments. Why is this topic always so in, regardless of the year?

As much as I've never been a fan of Kwan's, I don't think I've felt she was overrated; more a problem with the fans and commentators "fawning" and slobbering over her! She's won just about all she could except OG, but she isn't the first and won't be the last who missed out on it! I just preferred the jumping of a Surya or Irina and balletic styles of Sasha and Oksana believe it or not! Her music choices and choreographer were the best for her, I just wasn't caught up in this faux aura of greatness! She also stayed and hung around too long; JMHO! Fins, fins!

 

[slipchuk]

And Dick Button was the worst of the worst. He was the equivalent of gotoschool for Mao when it came to Kwan or his other pet Sasha Cohen. Remember him saying after her LP at the 1999 worlds whining that the judges did not put her 2nd after the short program and instead put her 4th since she had "only one fall". When everyone else, including the American journalists, some of them typically Kwan ubers, were saying she was massively held up to be 4th in the short program. Yes he seriously said that, for those who dont believe it check at 4:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XI1oCBAos

Dick literally made a complete fool of himself whenever commentating on Kwan or Cohen, Cohen probably even moreso believe it or not.

 

[Fiero425]

And Dick Button was the worst of the worst. He was the equivalent of gotoschool for Mao when it came to Kwan or his other pet Sasha Cohen. Remember him saying after her LP at the 1999 worlds whining that the judges did not put her 2nd after the short program and instead put her 4th since she had "only one fall". When everyone else, including the American journalists, some of them typically Kwan ubers, were saying she was massively held up to be 4th in the short program. Yes he seriously said that, for those who dont believe it check at 4:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XI1oCBAos

Dick literally made a complete fool of himself whenever commentating on Kwan or Cohen, Cohen probably even moreso believe it or not.

I well remember Tatiana Malinina being robbed and placed in 5th when she was clean in her SP! This has always been a shady sport using subjective judging to place these skaters where they wanted rather than where they deserved! She wound up in 4th after the LP, but you never know; she might have been on the podium if not for how crooked FS has been for as long as I can remember! No one abused more than my all time favorite Surya Bonaly! She just never played their game and she was punished for it time and time again!

 

[demetriosj]

.....This has always been a shady sport using subjective judging to place these skaters where they wanted rather than where they deserved!......

Preach it!!!!!!!!!!