Ekaterina Gordeeva vs Kristi Yamaguchi- pairs and singles

[slipchuk]

Gordeeva and Yamaguchi competed against each other both in pairs and singles. In 89 and 90 in pairs and from 96 to 98 as pros in singles. Ekaterina was the much better pairs skater and regularly dominated Kristi in pairs. Yet in singles Kristi was the much better singles skater and regularly thrashed and dominated Gordeeva in singles, even when Gordeeva who was an inconsistent singles skater had her best skates and landed the triple toe/double axel, sometimes triple salchow. It is interesting to compare how in one discipline one skater was far superior, and in the other the other was far superior.

So what was it that made Gordeeva such a far superior pairs skater to Yamaguchi, and what was it that made Yamaguchi such a far superior singles skater to Gordeeva.

 

[sap5]

One thing may be that Katia trained to be pairs skater, not a single skater, and it is quite the shock to skate by yourself when you're used to have a partner out there with you. Kristi trained to be both a singles and a pairs skater, so she knew the different mindsets one needs to succeed in each discipline.

 

[dramagrrl]

I would say that a large number of factors that made Gordeeva a superior pairs skater (to pretty much everybody of that era and beyond) were not just about her. She was blessed with a partner who was a perfect match for her, and I would say very few pairs, even those who achieve great success, are truly perfect matches. Rudy was a decent pairs skater, but not a great one and I definitely would not have said he was anything close to a perfect match for Kristi even though I liked them together as a team. Gordeeva also had the benefit of the Soviet/Russian training system, which was regularly churning out the best pairs in the world, and had the advantage over Kristi as a pairs skater also simply because Kristi was regularly training two disciplines at very high levels (this is why we almost never see skaters skate in two disciplines at the senior international level these days - when is the last time we saw a skater who was able to achieve any kind of world success in two disciplines at once??), while Katia was concentrating fully (and rigorously, given Soviet training style) on pairs.

Kristi and Rudy were regularly trouncing G&G and pretty much the rest of the world field when it came to technical elements, though. They were landing two sets of SBS triple jumps (including SBS triple flips!) in the early 90s, when most teams were doing double axels and no SBS triples at all. Kristi did a catch-foot position on her death spiral and held it throughout, which even most IJS teams don't do despite the new popularity of catch-foot positions heading into the death spirals for max points. They were mirror skaters, so they were able to do combo spins in both directions, which is very difficult. None of those things made them a better pairs team than G&G, obviously, but Kristi was no slouch as a pairs skater, is all I'm trying to say.

 

[slipchuk]

When you say Rudy wasnt a perfect match for Kristi, what do you mean, and what would be an example of the type of male pairs skater who would be. Was it the lack of physical size and upper body strength by him compared to some of the other male pairs skaters like Eisler, Grinkov, or Dmitrev that would allow them to do bigger twists, throws, and harder lifts. Since Kristi is not big, even for a pairs skater, but he wasnt one of the bigger male pair partners. Or was it also because he was gay, and it would be nearly impossible to create a romantic or overly dramatic style together on the ice as the Russians do, as it would be impossible to even create a guise of love or tension between them.

I always thought watching pro events if Gordeeva could match Kristi in jumping they would be fairly competitive and close. The rest of her skating wasnt much below Kristi, but she could not come even close to her in jumping.

 

[sap5]

I always thought watching pro events if Gordeeva could match Kristi in jumping they would be fairly competitive and close. The rest of her skating wasnt much below Kristi, but she could not come even close to her in jumping.

That's why she became a pairs skater, as opposed to singles skater, in the first place.

 

[Vera Costa]

Katia had a partner for nearly 20+ years. Her solo career didn't begin till 1996, when she was 25 years old. I think you'll find that after a lifetime in one discipline (with one partner), it is difficult to move to another.

Kristi till 1990 did both. She and Rudi had been partnered four about 4 years(?). He was also a singles skater. Then at 19, she decided to focus on just singles.

I think you'll find that those factors more than anything made one more suited to pairs or singles than the other.

 

[dramagrrl]

When you say Rudy wasnt a perfect match for Kristi, what do you mean, and what would be an example of the type of male pairs skater who would be. Was it the lack of physical size and upper body strength by him compared to some of the other male pairs skaters like Eisler, Grinkov, or Dmitrev that would allow them to do bigger twists, throws, and harder lifts. Since Kristi is not big, even for a pairs skater, but he wasnt one of the bigger male pair partners. Or was it also because he was gay, and it would be nearly impossible to create a romantic or overly dramatic style together on the ice as the Russians do, as it would be impossible to even create a guise of love or tension between them.

The only thing I would take into account in regards to Rudy being gay was that he has said repeatedly that he felt that USFS was never a big supporter of his because of his sexuality and the fact that he was quite open about being gay, even though he was never officially "out" while he was skating pairs. Perhaps this affected their pairs marks as well - no one can really know the truth about that. I don't think his sexuality would have completely precluded them from adopting a more romantic or dramatic style - there have been several gay pairs and ice dance partners who have managed to convincingly pull off romantic or dramatic themes with their on-ice partners.

My thoughts on Kristi's "perfect match" were more along the lines of a partner who whose style, size, etc. would allow her skating skills and elegance to be shown off to more advantage. Yes, a bigger/taller partner probably would have been a better match, even though she and Rudy were a pretty good match size-wise due to her small frame. If you watch her skate pairs as a professional skater in her later SOI years with Denis Petrov, you can see how she might have looked with a taller partner with more elegant lines and the ability to really showcase Kristi to her best advantage. However, a bigger/taller partner who did not also compete at a high level as a singles skater would likely not have been able to land difficult SBS triples, as Rudy was able to do with relative ease. (Eric Radford comes to mind as a tall pairs partner who can land difficult SBS jumps, but again, he was also a singles skater at a high level for quite some time before devoting himself fully to pairs.)

 

[clairecloutier]

Can't resist jumping into this thread, as I'm such a big fan of both Yamaguchi and Gordeeva.

I actually think Kristi/Rudi were very well-matched in 2 specific ways. 1) They were obviously both very strong individual jumpers. 2) They were stylistically similar. Both had a lot of refinement, attention to detail, and musicality in their skating. Both were rather elegant, polished, almost delicate skaters. So in this way, they matched well.

Areas where they weren't as strong: 1) Lack of a big height difference. 2) Opposite rotators. 3) Neither of them were known for their speed. At that time in pairs, speed was one of the biggest factors in winning. That was definitely their biggest weakness as a team IMO. 4) They only had one triple throw, at least in 1989 and 1990, when their layout included throw triple Salchow but only throw double loop. (Whereas G/G had throw triple Salchow and throw double Axel.)

A brief glance at a couple videos from the 1989-90 season illustrates the difference between Yamaguchi/Galindo and Gordeeva/Grinkov at that point.

Yamaguchi/Galindo Nationals 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFthnJ6xg9k
Gordeeva/Grinkov Europeans 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSL-hpsFAtw

Gordeeva/Grinkov were evidently faster than Yamaguchi/Galindo and had bigger amplitude in their pairs elements (twist, throws, even lifts). Artistically, they were just a little more developed and sophisticated, with better unison too. Yamaguchi/Galindo were much superior side-by-side jumpers. However, I think in that era, the judges didn't care about side-by-side jumps nearly as much as they cared about speed and pairs elements. Hence, Gordeeva/Grinkov's advantage.

Despite this, however, I still feel Kristi/Rudi were a very talented pairs team, as shown by their 5th-place finishes at Worlds in 1989/1990. They're definitely one of the great "what ifs" of American pairs skating. Who knows what would have happened if they had kept going, or if Kristi had ever devoted herself full-time to pairs.

 

[Skittl1321]

That's why she became a pairs skater, as opposed to singles skater, in the first place.

What evidence do you have that she decided to do pairs because she wasn't a strong jumper?

That seems to be a very American mindset (go to pairs when singles fails)- I believe she trained pairs because she wanted to be a pairs skater; I've never seen evidence she did because she wasn't great at singles.

 

[Vash01]

Neither is a fair comparison. Gordeeva trained to be a pairs skater for many years, competed at worlds and Olympics. Kristi's pairs career was very short. She and Rudy were a well matched pair athletically, and had a nice connection on the ice (like brother and sister) but they never reached their potential. When their coach died, and Kristi's singles coach moved to Canada, it became almost impossible for them to continue, unless Kristi abandoned her singles career. She was not going to do that. Kristi and Rudy competed at only two worlds. That is just not enough for anyone to be compared with a legendary pair like G&G. Not a fair comparison.

For singles the situation was reversed. Kristi had competed for years as a singles skater. Her strength was her jump consistency, even as a pro. She did develop a lot artistically. Gordeeva was never a strong jumper, by her win admission. It was enough firboairs skating those days. Also she learned to be alone on the ice much later in her career. She learned to do the layback spin, and a double lutz. There was no way she was going to learn anything harder than a triple toe at age 23 plus. She developed over time as a singles skater, but it was without the background of competitive singles skating. So again, this is not a fair comparison.

 

[sap5]

What evidence do you have that she decided to do pairs because she wasn't a strong jumper?

That seems to be a very American mindset (go to pairs when singles fails)- I believe she trained pairs because she wanted to be a pairs skater; I've never seen evidence she did because she wasn't great at singles.

She said it herself in her book "My Sergei." As for mindset...she didn't really have a choice. The Soviet Federation decided that she wasn't a good enough jumper to compete in singles, but would make a fine pair skater.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Color me really stupid. I just watched Rudy and Kristie do the FS that was linked above. I had no idea that they skated like that. For some reason I had it in my head that they skated pairs when they were children. That was fabulous to watch....and a lot of it would have held up even today.

And something you rarely find these days..................landed jumps! Ah-mazing.