The Skating Lesson

Sasha is DIVINE

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LOL this thread is the first thing I thought about after seeing that interview had been posted! I hoped it might make a couple posters here happy. :lol:
 

olympic

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^BTW, I really enjoyed listening to Linda's TSL interview. She's entertaining.

Some interesting takeaways -

Carlo Fassi approached Linda's mother prior to the 80 Olympics and told her that he could make Linda an Olympic Champion, but Linda was loyal to Frank and never considered it.

During the Compulsory Figures at the Olympics, Linda was in 2nd until there was a 'coffee break', the competition resumed and Linda's marks after the break were consistently lower and she dropped to 3rd behind Dagmar Lurz. Her team went on the ice to review a tracing. They thought the marks were odd because Dagmar's loop was flat and should've received lower marks while Linda's tracing was superior.

A state trooper escorted Linda and her mother to the Olympic rink.

After her LP, Frank thought she had won but she wasn't sure looking at her marks. She and her mother went to an abandoned locker room to wait, and they waited. When no one came to get them, Linda assumed she didn't win.

She and Rosalynn Sumners crossed paths on the professional circuit. She and Roz talked about their heartbreaking Olympic experiences which were extremely similar (Although, I think Linda couldn't have skated better and was maybe rooked, while Roz gave the title away).

She does not regret her experience because she gave 100% in all 3 segments of the Olympic competition
 

berthesghost

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Roz was not responsible for Kat’s magical, meteoric overnight improvement in figures. Ironically, Roz’s finishes more closely match Anett’s and Kat’s Linda’s, but the rules were changed after LP and unlike Anett, Roz could not use her figures score to prop herself up to a win.
 

olympic

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Roz was not responsible for Kat’s magical, meteoric overnight improvement in figures. Ironically, Roz’s finishes more closely match Anett’s and Kat’s Linda’s, but the rules were changed after LP and unlike Anett, Roz could not use her figures score to prop herself up to a win.

Irony, eh?

BTW, Linda in her interview seems to tow Frank's line that there was a German-speaking conspiracy against Linda which I don't buy. But, I do think Linda was rooked for a different reason - Annett's overly generous marks in the SP and I read more than 1 source that states Linda may have been held down in the figures.
 

bardtoob

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Annett had a major deficit in one of the competition segments while Linda and Dagmar were pretty consistent across the segments, so on its face, even if the rules were followed, Annett's win makes no sense.

I think the judges often tweek the use of the rules to assign a winner "at the Olympics", anyway. Worlds is a much more objective competition.

BTW the combination Annett had "planned", 2Lp-3T, was ridiculous for its time and even difficult by today's standards. Annette simply could not do a 2Lp in combination with a triple, and it had not been a problem in the past seasons because the 2Lp had not been the required jump. However, it was a clear problem at 1980 Euros in the SP, although she skated very well in the LP.
 
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Willin

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During the Compulsory Figures at the Olympics, Linda was in 2nd until there was a 'coffee break', the competition resumed and Linda's marks after the break were consistently lower and she dropped to 3rd behind Dagmar Lurz. Her team went on the ice to review a tracing. They thought the marks were odd because Dagmar's loop was flat and should've received lower marks while Linda's tracing was superior.
I mean, I get that coaches are biased so their assessment may be off (ie. checking the tracings), but the "coffee break"? Was that actually a thing that happened? I cannot fathom how blatantly corrupt that sounds... Also, the judges were allowed to take a coffee break outside of ice resurfacings? I know figures took forever to judge but isn't that a bit excessive?

I think the judges often tweek the use of the rules to assign a winner "at the Olympics", anyway. Worlds is a much more objective competition.
Yeah. It always seems that at an Olympics (and in an Olympic season in general) the judging is really weird. For some reason this season a lot of the scores of all ladies with a potential to medal (ie. Russian, Canadian, Japanese ladies) are really inflated (some ladies more than others). It's also fishy how little falls are being punished. I get it in Medvedeva's case because her fall didn't really interrupt the program for more than a couple of seconds, but there's men that had splatfest programs who were not punished at all! Didn't some even get SBs or PBs with their fall-filled programs?
It's just ridiculous. It's as if the judges try to justify their favorites for the podium all season so it doesn't seem weird come the Olympics, especially if a newcomer reaches that podium.
 

olympic

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I mean, I get that coaches are biased so their assessment may be off (ie. checking the tracings), but the "coffee break"? Was that actually a thing that happened? I cannot fathom how blatantly corrupt that sounds... Also, the judges were allowed to take a coffee break outside of ice resurfacings? I know figures took forever to judge but isn't that a bit excessive?

Yeah. These were Linda's words during the interview. She mentioned 'coffee break'. I think she meant after 2 or so figures, the judges took a break and the insinuation is that there was an opening to discuss the competition as it was happening. She noted her marks for the figure(s) after the break were lower. No one knows what exactly was said, but it was a 'take it for what you will' comment.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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I remember reading somewhere that Carlo Fassi cut a deal with the judges. If they let Robin Cousins win, Annett would take gold over Linda.

Linda was the world champion coming into the event, and one of Cousins' biggest threats for the gold was Frau Mueller's other charge in Lake Placid, Jan Hoffmann. Cousins' victory was on a knife edge. He actually earned a slightly lower point total, but better ordinals.

I am still amazed Annett won. She almost blew it in the short (placing 4th), and only came 3rd in the free.

If they had used the upcoming scoring system instituted for the 1981 season instead, Fratianne would have won.
 
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bardtoob

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... one of Cousins' biggest threats for the gold was Frau Mueller's other charge in Lake Placid, Jan Hoffmann. Cousins' victory was on a knife edge. He actually earned a slightly lower point total, but better ordinals.

It is funny that you put it that way. Hoffmann was actually the skater with the better record. Cousins had never even won a major international title until he beat the three time reigning European Champion, Hoffmann, at 1980 Euros. Then Hoffmann scored more points than Cousins at the Olympics but still lost. Then Hoffmann won 1980 Worlds. I wonder if it was at those 1980 Euros that Fassi said to Mueller, "You know, they won't let you have both singles Gold medals, so here's what we can do . . ."

I am still amazed Annett won. She almost blew it in the short (placing 4th), and only coming 3rd in the free.

Annett blew the short at 1980 Euros as well because she could not do a triple-double combo that included a 2Lp. However, it was less consequential at Euros because it did not include all the world-class skaters since the Americans, Canadians, and Japanese (Given Watanabe was an unusual case) could not participate.. Annett should have been lower than 4th in the SP at the Olympics.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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It is funny that you put it that way. Hoffmann was actually the skater with the better record. Cousins had never even won a major international title until he beat the three time reigning European Champion, Hoffmann, at 1980 Euros. Then Hoffmann scored more points than Cousins at the Olympics but still lost. Then Hoffmann won 1980 Worlds. I wonder if it was at those 1980 Euros that Fassi said to Mueller, "You know, they won't let you have both singles Gold medals, so here's what we can do . . ."

Hoffmann was indeed the skater with the better record.

But Cousins was no slouch, either. To date, he was free - skating champion of the world in 1978 and 1979, and took silver to Hoffmann's bronze in Vienna at the 1979 World Championships.
 

bardtoob

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Hoffmann was indeed the skater with the better record.

But Cousins was no slouch, either. To date, he was free - skating champion of the world in 1978 and 1979, and took silver to Hoffmann's bronze in Vienna at the 1979 World Championships.

There was a reason Cousins never won. The competition format did not favor him. Jan was simply the better skater across the three segments. Cousins was as poor a fit for that competition format as Lisa Marie Allen. Why Fassi could not get either of them to do better in figures, I will never know. Wasn't that Fassi's specialty?
 

olympic

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It is funny that you put it that way. Hoffmann was actually the skater with the better record. Cousins had never even won a major international title until he beat the three time reigning European Champion, Hoffmann, at 1980 Euros. Then Hoffmann scored more points than Cousins at the Olympics but still lost. Then Hoffmann won 1980 Worlds. I wonder if it was at those 1980 Euros that Fassi said to Mueller, "You know, they won't let you have both singles Gold medals, so here's what we can do . . ."



Annett blew the short at 1980 Euros as well because she could not do a triple-double combo that included a 2Lp. However, it was less consequential at Euros because it did not include all the world-class skaters since the Americans, Canadians, and Japanese (Given Watanabe was an unusual case) could not participate.. Annett should have been lower than 4th in the SP at the Olympics.

It was debated years ago that Sandy Lenz (no 3 American) and oddly enough, Dagmar Lurz who had the SP of her life should have both beaten Poetzsch and pushed her down to 6th. Also, too bad Emi Watanabe screwed up the jump combo, she would’ve easily been 4th and set herself up to medal
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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There was a reason Cousins never won. The competition format did not favor him. Jan was simply the better skater across the three segments. Cousins was as poor a fit for that competition format as Lisa Marie Allen. Why Fassi could not get either of them to do better in figures, I will never know. Wasn't that Fassi's specialty?

Still, in the scheme of things, who do we remember more?

For example, Trixi Schuba may have won the gold in Sapporo, but Janet Lynn won everyone's hearts.

There is a fantastic documentary posted by floskate which details this very issue. I'll see if I can source it for you when I have a moment.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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It was debated years ago that Sandy Lenz (no 3 American) and oddly enough, Dagmar Lurz who had the SP of her life should have both beaten Poetzsch and pushed her down to 6th. Also, too bad Emi Watanabe screwed up the jump combo, she would’ve easily been 4th and set herself up to medal

I loved Sandy Lenz!
 

floskate

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This is the competition result that just refuses to go away isn't it? :lol:

Carlo approaching her is a really important point. Having produced the mens and ladies champions in 1976, perhaps he wanted to emulate the feat in 1980 and certainly he had the political clout that Frank didn't have. However, I have a hard time seeing Fassi take both 1980 titles over Jutta Muller who was just as politically active as he was. They both expertly navigated the backstage politics of the sport and it's part of what made them such incredible coaches in this era.

I go back and forth on Hoffmann/Cousins. Had he not won we would be looking back and lamenting a judging system that held back one of the sports greatest ever free skaters. But had the factored placements been in place, Jan would have won plain and simple. Jan was the better overall skater when you factor in compulsory figures and way more consistent than Robin, although obviously without Robin's flair, musicality and showmanship. So I guess I remain conflicted :lol: But Jan's performances in 1980 are just stellar in every respect. You can see the hard work he'd put in to his skating to try and compete with Robin. It was without doubt the greatest LP he ever had and he skated it brilliantly in Lake Placid AND Dortmund. I just have so much :respec: for him!

One take away from this interview is that Linda has a very vivacious personality. She's really camp actually (which I LOVE) but sadly we never saw this in her amateur skating. In terms of free skating ability they were very evenly matched in the end. The thing that frustrates me with Linda though is how much better she could have been. For someone who started skating relatively late, she got very good very quickly but once everything was established by 1976 it was as if it was all just set in stone. The formula was working so why tamper with it? Linda alludes to this herself in the first part. But that whole quad there was Denise Biellmann having a go at triple toe, sal, loop and lutz and lo and behold, by 1980 she's packaged well, landing everything and taking the free at the Olympics! The truth is, Fratianne should have been a far superior free skater to Anett but ended up being just slightly better packaged and a tad more consistent.
 

berthesghost

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Linda's inner diva really seemed to come out most when discussing her pro career. My take away was that I hadn't realized how much I'd been played by propaganda over the years. For 5 years ABC droned on over and over again this narrative of the shy girl next door who was held back in competition by her lack of confidence, but did any of it exist outside of some idea a tv producer got in a meeting one day? And the obvious pride Linda took in being a Disney princess really flies in the face of Brennan's narrative of all the skaters like poor poor SOI staple Roz humiliated and demeaned by Disney until hero Scott came along to save pro skating.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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I go back and forth on Hoffmann/Cousins. Had he not won we would be looking back and lamenting a judging system that held back one of the sports greatest ever free skaters. But had the factored placements been in place, Jan would have won plain and simple. Jan was the better overall skater when you factor in compulsory figures and way more consistent than Robin, although obviously without Robin's flair, musicality and showmanship. So I guess I remain conflicted :lol: But Jan's performances in 1980 are just stellar in every respect. You can see the hard work he'd put in to his skating to try and compete with Robin. It was without doubt the greatest LP he ever had and he skated it brilliantly in Lake Placid AND Dortmund. I just have so much :respec: for him!

Back then, I remember Time magazine unkindly comparing Hoffmann to an expertly twirling tree trunk.
 

gkelly

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If I offended you, I apologise. But for the record, competitive skating did exist before Medvedeva and Hanyu entered the scene.

My point was that Western media especially during the Cold War tended to root for and give more coverage as well as more favorable coverage to the Western skaters, and no doubt the opposite was true in Eastern Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if East German fans of my age (which is about the same as the skaters in question) would remember Poetzsch much more clearly and fondly than they remember Fratianne.
 

skatfan

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Linda's inner diva really seemed to come out most when discussing her pro career. My take away was that I hadn't realized how much I'd been played by propaganda over the years. For 5 years ABC droned on over and over again this narrative of the shy girl next door who was held back in competition by her lack of confidence, but did any of it exist outside of some idea a tv producer got in a meeting one day? And the obvious pride Linda took in being a Disney princess really flies in the face of Brennan's narrative of all the skaters like poor poor SOI staple Roz humiliated and demeaned by Disney until hero Scott came along to save pro skating.

I really enjoyed hearing about her touring days. The truth is that a lot more skaters were employed by the Disney shows than SOI. But color me amused when Roz complained about the travel with the Disney show - SOI at its height was traveling for months on end!
 

aftershocks

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... Carlo Fassi approached Linda's mother prior to the 80 Olympics and told her that he could make Linda an Olympic Champion, but Linda was loyal to Frank and never considered it.

The same thing happened to Toller Cranston in the lead-up to 1976 Olympics. Toller was given a take-it or leave-it coaching offer by Fassi, which would have meant Toller having to dump his long-time coach, confidante, and collaborator, Ellen Burka. Of course, Toller nixed the offer. Fassi then scooped up Toller's rival John Curry, and the rest is history. Fassi had significant and enviable political clout with judges, so kudos to Linda and to Toller for maintaining their ideals and their loyalties, and trusting in their talent to see them through competitively.

Thanks for your insights @floskate re the backstory and politics on Jan/Robin, and your view of the Linda/Anett controversy. Oh well, books can be written about all of the political/controversial judging decisions in figure skating. Certainly without Fassi on her team, Linda had to rely solely on her talent which was tremendous. There's no question IMO that Linda was a better overall skater than Anett Poetsch. I personally wouldn't nitpick with Linda needing to have been even more spectacular in order to beat Poetsch, especially not after the politics in the scoring of the compulsory figures!

It is interesting that Linda said everyone on her team felt that she'd won. Back then grabbing the skater as soon as they come off the ice and sticking a microphone in their face was bad form. Linda actually looked a little overwhelmed, and a little uncertain after the marks came up. She even said to Dick in her out-of-breath state that she felt she skated better in the sp, and that her energy was not good in the fp, although she felt she pushed it! :drama: TMI! Still, Linda and Frank had every good reason to believe she had more than a good chance of winning with the clean performance she put out. She was a better free skater than Anett IMO. Anett definitely had the Euro politics behind her, even in Lake Placid.

Since two Fassi-coached skaters had won the Olympics in 1976, the odds were against the same happening in 1980. But, Fassi had enviable clout, likely enough to battle Jutta Muller's. With Linda turning down Fassi, he surely could have lent Muller & Anett his behind-the-scenes support, which could have been the 'trump' card against Linda winning. Dumping Frank though is just not something that Linda would have ever considered or thought she needed to do. Also, U.S. fed did not know how to do politics, and Frank was a young, up-and-coming coach without any pull internationally. U.S. ladies would not be back on top of the Olympic podium until 1992.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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I really enjoyed hearing about her touring days. The truth is that a lot more skaters were employed by the Disney shows than SOI. But color me amused when Roz complained about the travel with the Disney show - SOI at its height was traveling for months on end!

I believe Sumners felt that Disney was a bit of a come down after the glamour of amateur competition, and during her tenure with them, had to jump out of a giant cake to celebrate Donald Duck's 50th birthday. I guess it didn't help her ego, being second fiddle to a cartoon character, either.

Rosalynn, however, handed in some of her most elegant, exciting and creative work with Stars On Ice. It was clear how valued she felt working with Scott's company.
 

mackiecat

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Yeah. These were Linda's words during the interview. She mentioned 'coffee break'. I think she meant after 2 or so figures, the judges took a break and the insinuation is that there was an opening to discuss the competition as it was happening. She noted her marks for the figure(s) after the break were lower. No one knows what exactly was said, but it was a 'take it for what you will' comment.
So there were 22 skaters doing 3 figures each at around 5 minutes per skate. That is 5.5 hours without floods. ( Did they use a hand flooded for Olympics?) Remember the judges stood on the ice for this. They would need a break or two. You think a few 15 minutes breaks would unthaw them?Even now for large events, the judges get breaks that are longer than 15 minutes.
 

skatfan

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I believe Sumners felt that Disney was a bit of a come down after the glamour of amateur competition, and during her tenure with them, had to jump out of a giant cake to celebrate Donald Duck's 50th birthday. I guess it didn't help her ego, being second fiddle to a cartoon character, either.

Rosalynn, however, handed in some of her most elegant, exciting and creative work with Stars On Ice. It was clear how valued she felt working with Scott's company.

Oh, I agree. But did you listen to Linda's interview? That's not how she talked to Linda, apparently. It was about the "travel" not the show.
 

Cleo1782

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Oh, I agree. But did you listen to Linda's interview? That's not how she talked to Linda, apparently. It was about the "travel" not the show.

I would assume traveling at that time was too much for Roz. Although her and Linda both shared a similar defeat ie they both won silver-Linda skated very well almost her best, Roz gave away the gold with a poor skate. Linda did everything in her power to win, while Roz probably had numerous regrets. I believe Roz talks about being unmotivated and out of shape post Olympics. By the time SOI was in full swing she obviously found peace with herself (and a friendship with Katarina) and was more focused on skating. With age I am sure the loss dimmed for Roz and she was smart enough to realize travel was going to make her a lot of money lol. And I would consider touring a job. With any job, there is a right fit. Disney on Ice was right for Linda, but not Roz. It doesn't make Disney bad or Roz bad just not the right job for her. Btw, I am not even a fan of Roz. I think she was very fortunate to get on Scott's tour in the beginning because she certainly made a fine career for herself, better than her talent should have allowed. But good for her for cashing in while the iron was hot and keeping her skating skills at least mildly competitive with the rest of the ladies.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Oh, I agree. But did you listen to Linda's interview? That's not how she talked to Linda, apparently. It was about the "travel" not the show.

From memory, I think the story was either from one of Christine Brennan or Beverley Smith's books. I'll have to check for you.

I'm watching the interview with Linda now.
 

bardtoob

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For someone who started skating relatively late, she got very good very quickly but once everything was established by 1976 it was as if it was all just set in stone. The formula was working so why tamper with it? Linda alludes to this herself in the first part. But that whole quad there was Denise Biellmann having a go at triple toe, sal, loop and lutz and lo and behold, by 1980 she's packaged well, landing everything and taking the free at the Olympics! The truth is, Fratianne should have been a far superior free skater to Anett but ended up being just slightly better packaged and a tad more consistent.

I think that Linda's freeskating development stalled in terms of jumps because she had to intensely train figures and she was surrounded by antiquated ideas about female athleticism. In the Canadian Commentary on Biellmann's LP after the 3Lz the male commentator flat out says "Women aren't supposed to be able to do that."
 

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