The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Lutzlvr]

As a fan of Tessa and Scott, I am a little worried about the FD that they delivered at GPF. At Skate Canada, I was blown away by where the program was at that stage of the season and excited to see them develop Moulin Rouge into an even more mesmerizing program in the way that only Tessa and Scott can. They are the consummate performers, excelling in so many different dance genres. And I don’t have a problem with Moulin Rouge thematically, or even with how the parts of the program fits together.

My issue with the program at this point is with the choreography: there is almost no flow. It feels like there are so many choreographic dance steps and not enough skating steps (which would allow them to build speed and flow). When I look back at their FD from last season, I see more of Marie-France’s influence. Whatever you may think of the Latch program, it had great flow and speed while showcasing their sharpness and control. I felt like we were watching a new Tessa and Scott- which is what they said they came back to do. It seemed the great confluence of their Igor/Marina foundation with Montreal fluidity.

The current Moulin Rouge program feels like a program they could have done back in their days in Detroit. Perhaps in trying to differentiate themselves from their Montreal competitors (there is more variety in the programs coming out of Gadbois this season), they have lost/cut out too much of the Marie- France feel?

 

[lauravvv]

My issue with the program at this point is with the choreography: there is almost no flow. It feels like there are so many choreographic dance steps and not enough skating steps (which would allow them to build speed and flow).

I think you confuse/don't have a correct idea of what are skating steps and what are merely choreographic steps. All steps (except small jumps and running on one's toe picks) during which skaters are using their edges while continuing to moving across the ice ARE skating steps, no matter if they are faster or slower, shorter or longer. Only "steps" (if they can even be called that) that are done in place are merely choreographic "steps". Furthermore, all steps which probably look like choreographic/dance steps to you (in V/M's case), but are done as a part of step sequences, are skating steps. There are no merely "choreographic" steps in step sequences.

It's true that Tessa and Scott have more of the difficult and comparatively "shorter" steps in their 'Moulin Rouge' FD than (of) the longer and easier steps with long sweeping edges that emphasise flow and speed rather than difficulty and power. I don't think it's a bad thing, merely a different skating style with emphasis on different things (difficult turns and edges, as well as more difficult holds which are also part of ice dancing) than just simply speed and flow. Yes, the style that emphasises flow is more "in fashion" now. Perhaps the different style doesn't play in V/M's favor, but their skating wouldn't be quite as "flowy" as P/C's even in a program that would put emphasis on that anyway, as they have a different way of skating and their strengths lie elsewhere.

When I look back at their FD from last season, I see more of Marie-France’s influence. Whatever you may think of the Latch program, it had great flow and speed while showcasing their sharpness and control. I felt like we were watching a new Tessa and Scott- which is what they said they came back to do. It seemed the great confluence of their Igor/Marina foundation with Montreal fluidity.

The current Moulin Rouge program feels like a program they could have done back in their days in Detroit.

All of their lyrical FDs done in Detroit had flow/fluidity and not so many short and difficult dance steps. The difference was that they did not have the skating skills, speed and power of today then, so they couldn't showcase that fluidity in the same way as now or even in the 2013/2014 season.

 

[Bigbird]

All that we're pointing out is what makes ice dance almost irrelevant as a sport, it's just too subjective. In years to come, they may even remove it as an Olympic discipline.

We all know what is more difficult as do the judges, but they seem to just pick their favourites based on aesthetics and throw the rule book out of the window. Right now the trend is soft, floaty, speed, and very long edges. Unless another team comes along that can cause them to rethink that. But almost all teams are following the trend. IMHO, a lot of what happens today is great synchronized skating but not really dancing. I honestly believe V/M arranged their program the way they did to buck the current trends and show off their versatility. When they do it well as they did in SK it is magical, but when they don't the impression crumples. Also, the judges might not care either way as they like what they like.

What can they really do with less than 2 months to the OG? They can not make these major changes that we're wildly suggesting. IMHO, they need to take a deep breath and just skate their program as they envisioned it and hope for the best.

 

[MarieM]

Oh my.
Now they are even coming her to uber here. Oh well
Let's create a new one without ubering

 

[cocotaffy]

One of the very interesting battle at Nationals will be Stepanova/Bukin vs Sinitsina/Katsalapov. Some of you seem to favor S/B and think they improved a lot but the two teams scored actually quite close on the GP:
S/B 179.35 at Rostelecom and 177.24 at IDF
S/K 177.15 at NHK and 176.53 at SA
I have to say I was quite surprised to see how relatively well S/K did at the GP considering how they started the season (falls and all) S/B might have beneficiated of a small bump at Rostelecom and seeing they skated very well at IDF their scores are very close to S/K. Of course, S/B are much more reliable than S/K but is there still a chance they could come 2nd at Nationals ?
As for B/S they received slightly higher scores which seems to indicate, barring disaster, they should end 1st.
184.74 at Rostelecom and 182.84 at CoC (Interesting fact: like S/B, their scores dropped exactly by 2 points after Rostelecom)

Disclaimer: yes I know we're not supposed to compare scores between competitions but it does give a base.

 

[Bigbird]

Yes, Russian Nationals is going to be a very nervy and close event. All three top teams have such different strengths and weaknesses.

1. B/S have the most experience, and great technique when on, but not the most moving programs.
2. S/B are the most reliable arguably, the best packaging and finesse, but not necessarily the best skating skills. But boy have they been working on that.
3. S/K have great speed and ice coverage, and elegant moments, but shaky at times, especially when nervous.

I don't think placement matters much here, we know the team going to Europeans. It will come down to who controls the nerves best at Europeans.

I am more interested in the fourth and fifth place. It looks like P/M could be spoiling for an upset as Z/G's scores seemed to have spiralled downwards since the start of the season, they haven't really been building momentum. But we'll see.

 

[Areski]

Yes, Russian Nationals is going to be a very nervy and close event. All three top teams have such different strengths and weaknesses.

1. B/S have the most experience, and great technique when on, but not the most moving programs.
2. S/B are the most reliable arguably, the best packaging and finesse, but not necessarily the best skating skills. But boy have they been working on that.
3. S/K have great speed and ice coverage, and elegant moments, but shaky at times, especially when nervous.

I don't think placement matters much here, we know the team going to Europeans. It will come down to who controls the nerves best at Europeans.

I am more interested in the fourth and fifth place. It looks like P/M could be spoiling for an upset as Z/G's scores seemed to have spiralled downwards since the start of the season, they haven't really been building momentum. But we'll see.

S/B - and ''the best packaging'' is a debatable matter, their saccharine Free Dance to karaoke rendition of Liebestraum freaks me out (and many others too)

But ok, these programs work for them though. This season I like Sinitsina / Katsalapov the most.

 

[clairecloutier]

I find it not pleasant to watch Katsalapov at this point. Nevertheless, he & Sinitsina are about twice as good as Stepanova/Bukin IMO. Even with mistakes. Their skating skills are just that much better. It shouldn't be close IMO.

 

[Areski]

Oh my.
Now they are even coming her to uber here. Oh well
Let's create a new one without ubering

Ubering is great fun, don't you know?

 

[Bigbird]

That's what I mean, the strengths of one are the weaknesses of the other. Funny how things work out.

One pair IMHO has a very natural dancey quality and has the charisma that draws you in. It's just the way Bukin presents her, her soft arms, their interpretation of the music the pointed toes, the really strong twizzles etc. Yes, the music drives me nuts as well but they believe in it and yes their skating skills are not necessarily the best, but it works for this extremely saccharine program.

While S/K OTOH has great speed and ice coverage, and Katsalapov. Typically they're showcasing Katsalapov, or he's hamming it up to add flair.

So it will come down to the performances of the day and the panel. I wish they had the cajones to invite international judges, but hey, hopefully, the best teams will be selected. Period.

 

[cocotaffy]

I find it not pleasant to watch Katsalapov at this point. Nevertheless, he & Sinitsina are about twice as good as Stepanova/Bukin IMO. Even with mistakes. Their skating skills are just that much better. It shouldn't be close IMO.

I can't with Nikita's antics but SS wise he is indeed good minus the twizzles. However I don't think Sinitsina is much better than Stepanova. They look like twins and skate like twins too. They also both chose two divas as partners even though Bukin is harmless.
Overall S/B do look more polished this season and they do have a more fluid style and don't skate in the classic over dramatic Russian style. In that sense their presentation is more modern and on par with the current trend. Now they just need to learn to pick better music, every year they come up with the most unlikely and unflattering music.

 

[chapis]

This season, my main problem with S/K is that they skate very uncontrolled, as if they were very nervous. And I agree that Sinstina is not better than Stepanova, except that in my opinion, Victoria has better posture.

 

[clairecloutier]

Overall S/B do look more polished this season and they do have a more fluid style and don't skate in the classic over dramatic Russian style. In that sense their presentation is more modern and on par with the current trend. Now they just need to learn to pick better music, every year they come up with the most unlikely and unflattering music.

Agree. I find S/B's music choices consistently . This year being no exception, in either dance.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Results of the short dance at French nationals. Uncharacteristic fall for @GabriellaPks/@GuillaumeCIZ
pic.twitter.com/wdG8DNgMFP

TES - 41.13
PCS - 38.88
TSS - 79.01

Still a great score with a fall.

 

[Jun Y]

This season, my main problem with S/K is that they skate very uncontrolled, as if they were very nervous. And I agree that Sinstina is not better than Stepanova, except that in my opinion, Victoria has better posture.

Totally agree. It's really him who always skates like he's out of control. Fast but mad. She is probably trying to just keep up with him. Also possible that she is nervous because he dropped her at least twice in competitions to date.

 

[millyskate]

What impressed me at the French GP with Stepanova and Bukin was just how ready and polished they looked in comparison to Chock/Bates and WeaPo. And they definitely didn't suffer from the comparison with skating skills either. To me they looked like a strong second at that competition, and I felt looking at the scores, somehow the judges wanted to put them second too but weren't quite brave enough.

 

[Anyasnake]

What impressed me at the French GP with Stepanova and Bukin was just how ready and polished they looked in comparison to Chock/Bates and WeaPo. And they definitely didn't suffer from the comparison with skating skills either. To me they looked like a strong second at that competition, and I felt looking at the scores, somehow the judges wanted to put them second too but weren't quite brave enough.

I second that immensly. They should have had the silver in France. I know everyone hates the music but even with that this was a clear 2nd for me.

 

[topaz]

@ Bigbird – I disagree slightly with your critique. All skating disciplines go through trends. Singles for time put more en on “artistic” skating, Those who lacked elegance and skating skills were hit really hard during this time. When figures were required, skaters who better at other skills like jumps and spins did not get the fully recognized yet. In Vancouver, we saw the Men’s Olympic Gold medals without a quad jump for the first time since 1992 Albertville but the judges wanted to reward different program elements instead of the quad jump(the quad jump was given enough points). All the disciplines go in “trends” of what type of programs the judges or isu wants to see.

Honestly, all sports go through trends. Tennis – there use to be more serve/volley players. But equipment changes contributed to the decline of that style of game. Now the game favors those who are powerful and the equipment has allowed players who are not as naturally powerful to compete with those are who are.


My issue with ice dance in particular is judges have too much to do and to look at. Granted there is a technical specialist. The judges appear they still do not under the IJS. The judges tend to “rank” the skaters and give those skater the same GOE on elements. I believe they should not give GOE until the elements have been reviewed after the performance. Allow the judges to watch the program in its entirety. Let the technical specialist confirm the levels, key points of the levels with the base value.


I do think there are skater who create programs that are different, yet they are not as valued like Gilles/Poirer(CAN) and Beaudry/Sorensen(Danes) as examples.

 

[caseyedwards]

I can't with Nikita's antics but SS wise he is indeed good minus the twizzles. However I don't think Sinitsina is much better than Stepanova. They look like twins and skate like twins too. They also both chose two divas as partners even though Bukin is harmless.
Overall S/B do look more polished this season and they do have a more fluid style and don't skate in the classic over dramatic Russian style. In that sense their presentation is more modern and on par with the current trend. Now they just need to learn to pick better music, every year they come up with the most unlikely and unflattering music.

They are with terrible coaches! s/b need dubreuil!

 

[Bigbird]

@ Bigbird – I disagree slightly with your critique. All skating disciplines go through trends. Singles for time put more en on “artistic” skating, Those who lacked elegance and skating skills were hit really hard during this time. When figures were required, skaters who better at other skills like jumps and spins did not get the fully recognized yet. In Vancouver, we saw the Men’s Olympic Gold medals without a quad jump for the first time since 1992 Albertville but the judges wanted to reward different program elements instead of the quad jump(the quad jump was given enough points). All the disciplines go in “trends” of what type of programs the judges or isu wants to see.

Honestly, all sports go through trends. Tennis – there use to be more serve/volley players. But equipment changes contributed to the decline of that style of game. Now the game favors those who are powerful and the equipment has allowed players who are not as naturally powerful to compete with those are who are.


My issue with ice dance in particular is judges have too much to do and to look at. Granted there is a technical specialist. The judges appear they still do not under the IJS. The judges tend to “rank” the skaters and give those skater the same GOE on elements. I believe they should not give GOE until the elements have been reviewed after the performance. Allow the judges to watch the program in its entirety. Let the technical specialist confirm the levels, key points of the levels with the base value.


I do think there are skater who create programs that are different, yet they are not as valued like Gilles/Poirer(CAN) and Beaudry/Sorensen(Danes) as examples.

Topaz, welcome to the convo. The Danes have been one of my favourite pairs ever since their Paso Doble SD a few seasons back. While I really like them I think their Flamenco FD is less impactful than that. I think part of the problem is the ice dancers are aware when the fix is in and it affects their performances from time to time.

Katsalpov always skates like he's being chased by a hurricane and its Victoria's job to keep pace with him so that they look good. But in spite of that, they've been giving them the high scores. The other pairs see that and read between the lines so hey I'm waiting for the new game changers who will render speed a basic and not the be all requirement for great ice dancing.

 

[Areski]

This season, my main problem with S/K is that they skate very uncontrolled, as if they were very nervous. And I agree that Sinstina is not better than Stepanova, except that in my opinion, Victoria has better posture.

I am always on the edge of the seat when they skate, and not for those good reasons (albeit they have very pleasant qualities). He looks like he's about to fall or stumble all the time. I feel like he's skating & performing even wilder (those arms!) than when he was with Elena.

 

[VGThuy]

As much as I don't want to say it, I thought Sinitsina/Katsalapov looked in-shape and really good at Skate America. Maybe my expectations were really low for them, but they seemed to be on track and in similar shape as Stepanova/Bukin.

 

[Anyasnake]

I am always on the edge of the seat when they skate, and not for those good reasons (albeit they have very pleasant qualities). He looks like he's about to fall all the time. I feel like he's skating & performing even wilder (those arms!) than when he was with Elena.

They have a lot of speed, arguably one of the teams with the most speed in the world (?). But they need to control that. Because a lot more couples would have such speed if they'll just go wild that way. It's been on the edge for the GPs but surprisingly it held up.
But then it's not just about the speed. They have great lines and big edges, but it's not properly used because it looks sloppy (sometimes too much). But then if I want to compare them to Step/Bukin who are very polished and seem to be very at ease with what they do... I'll go for the latter. But it will be decided on the day anyway.
I wonder if S/K will continue after 2018 though. That could be a factor for pushing S/B, who I think are in contention as of next season for all the big podiums (and one in january).

 

[Anyasnake]

They are with terrible coaches! s/b need dubreuil!

I don't think this is going to happen. A russian team coached by Marie-France, the opposite of quintessential Russian Ice Dance... Like we said earlier in the season, the number of applications on the desk after the Olympic season must be huge
I would love to see that though Isn't there some "issues" if a russian team wants to go abroad though ? Because S/B could benefit from that.

 

[mollymgr]

My issue with ice dance in particular is judges have too much to do and to look at. Granted there is a technical specialist. The judges appear they still do not under the IJS. The judges tend to “rank” the skaters and give those skater the same GOE on elements. I believe they should not give GOE until the elements have been reviewed after the performance. Allow the judges to watch the program in its entirety. Let the technical specialist confirm the levels, key points of the levels with the base value.

I wonder what it would look like if there was a tech panel + one set of judges that assign GOEs + one set of judges that assign PCS (the program as a whole). For any skating program that lasts only a few minutes, it is unreasonable to expect all the judges to multitask as much as they are expected to do under the current system.

 

[Areski]

I wonder what it would look like if there was a tech panel + one set of judges that assign GOEs + one set of judges that assign PCS (the program as a whole). For any skating program that lasts only a few minutes, it is unreasonable to expect all the judges to multitask as much as they are expected to do under the current system.

Yes, esp. as they tend to look down for a second to press those GOE buttons. They actually lose some skating taking place in real time, and the whole picture of it can get distorted / deprecated / obscured.

 

[Debbie S]

I wonder what it would look like if there was a tech panel + one set of judges that assign GOEs + one set of judges that assign PCS (the program as a whole). For any skating program that lasts only a few minutes, it is unreasonable to expect all the judges to multitask as much as they are expected to do under the current system.

The ISU tried that at Nebelhorn one year. The judges doing only GOEs complained they were bored and it was also decided that it was impractical to have 2 different judging panels plus a tech panel at each comp...too expensive and unwieldy, esp for smaller events.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don't think this is going to happen. A russian team coached by Marie-France, the opposite of quintessential Russian Ice Dance... Like we said earlier in the season, the number of applications on the desk after the Olympic season must be huge
I would love to see that though Isn't there some "issues" if a russian team wants to go abroad though ? Because S/B could benefit from that.

I/K trained in NJ and s/k trained in Michigan. I don’t believe there is a big problem with it. The main issue is does anyone with power in Russia still care anything about ice dance? quintessential Russian ice dance is totally unsuccessful now and means no world or Olympic medals so do they move away from it or not? And since s/b is next in line for Russia champions do they get sent to dubreuil to try to win world medals from 2018 to 2022.

 

[mollymgr]

The ISU tried that at Nebelhorn one year. The judges doing only GOEs complained they were bored and it was also decided that it was impractical to have 2 different judging panels plus a tech panel at each comp...too expensive and unwieldy, esp for smaller events.

Maybe they don't need all the 9 judges to be doing GOEs. It would have been better to be bored than miss a few things or a lot of things due to too many responsibilities.

 

[Zazy]

I also don't think MR is harder than MS, this is a bit of a cop out type of explanation. This kind of program is as much V/M's forte as MS is P/C's so they're off on an even ground here. They both play to their strengths. I would even add V/M's SD is in the same tone as their FD, an all out performance with Tessa gyrated like crazy in the opening poses and crowded choreo, so the range this year is not as big for them. Basically, everyone needs to hit their level in the cleanest way possible.

I don't understand your argument. You're basically saying if V/M's programs have similarities to what they've done before then they're easy for them. No reference to the technical difficulty of what's being done on the ice at all. P/C's programs aren't simple because they're similar to their previous ones. That's a separate issue and one that is nowhere in the rulebook, so they shouldn't be penalised for it.

I'm actually a fan of a lot of what P/C do, what's missing is the complexity. If they continue competing after this year I hope they start working on that front because there's been no progress in the past 4 years. As long as the judges don't care they have no reason to do so but to me great ice dancers should demonstrate that they're capable of complex footwork. Complex doesn't have to mean busy, they don't need to change their whole style. Maybe include some more closed holds? Work on their partnering? Cut back on crossovers and attempt more multidirectional skating? V/M would be gone by then, they'd have free reign. I really hope they do it.