I, Tonya

skatepixie

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As a writer, I can understand that. It's a little different for me, though, because I have to get inside the heads of many different characters, not just the main character. Often these different personalities are at odds with each other. This would certainly be the case with a Tonya story (which is a true story, but there are enough unknown factors to allow a writer to play around with it).

Yeah, though I bet you can also speak to every character's flaws. Having read your (amazing stuff), I would bet literal money on that. :)
 

jenniferlyon

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Yeah, though I bet you can also speak to every character's flaws. Having read your (amazing stuff), I would bet literal money on that. :)

Thank you. :)
And yes, if I were writing a Tonya story, I would portray her as a VERY flawed character. There's no way I could make a "Mary Sue" out of her. The readers would never believe it, for one thing.
 

Inessence

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Thank you. :)
And yes, if I were writing a Tonya story, I would portray her as a VERY flawed character. There's no way I could make a "Mary Sue" out of her. The readers would never believe it, for one thing.

Yeah, because Mary Sue would be “Nancy”, don’t ya know? ;)
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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Does she even have a criminal record? Has she been charged for anything - the whack or anything else (i.e. the hubcap incident)?
She pled guilty to hindering the prosecution so, yes, she has been charged and has a criminal record. That makes her a criminal by definition.

She was arrested in the hubcap incident so she was charged with a crime in that one as well. And spent 3 days in jail for it (as she was found guilty and that's the usual sentence for what she did).
 

Tinami Amori

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I absolutely disagree with the notion that innocent people don’t plea bargain. Reasons as to why people take plea deals even though they still claim innocence usually involve many factors such as poverty and race.
I know what you mean.. I always pleaded guilty when i had a poor excuse for .2 alcho-level and why i raced @ 80 miles/hr. backwards on Golden Gate Bridge.
 

Japanfan

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USFSA was also willing to state that she knew about it, and I believe she did. Heck, she later admitted to it, though she claimed she felt threatened by her ex and wasn't going to go to the authorities because of it.

I've always believed she knew about it. But I still have compassion for her because I see her as a young woman who was insecure, an outsider, had an abusive background, and was competing in a sport that can be brutal on athletes' self-esteem. She was rough and tumble and loud in a sport where ladies were to be graceful and sweet.

I myself was an outsider in junior high school and high school, due to a confluence of certain circumstances. Being jealous of the insiders and the popular girls was quite unavoidable, as was feeling inferior to them. A strong albeit small group of friends and strong academic capabilities enabled me to cope okay with the situation.

Multiply the feeling of jealousy and inferiority x 100 at least for someone in the competitive world of FS, which has its own popularity contests, played out for high stakes in the limelight. So it's not really hard for me to comprehend how being an outsider in the competitive world of figure skating could drive a young woman who was already emotionally unstable with low self-esteem and a horrible parent to do what Tonya et al. did. Although she was not a child, I see her as having been very immature at the time and not functioning at all like an adult who is able to employ reason.

In FS we see a lot more really supportive families, like the Kwans and Stoijkos, than troubled families (i.e. Tonya, Emanuel Sandhu). Of course we don't know what is going on behind the image - Stoijko's parents divorced after his skating career ended, and for a variety of reasons, including how miserable dad used to look at comps, I got the sense that they stayed together only for his skating career.

But in general, IMO having a healthy, supportive family (even if adoptive) makes a huge difference in terms of an athlete's capacity to succeed. Tonya did not have that, and her failure was spectacular.

And I absolutely do not apologize for having compassion.

As for what would happen if an ordinary person did this -- if she were ordinary, she wouldn't have done it. Qui bono, and all that. Premeditated actions are also (rightly) seen as worse than acts of passion "in the moment." Bashing someone's knee in during, say, a bar brawl, is not nearly as bad as having your competitor injured on purpose so you can win. Of course, bar fighting is bad, unseemly, trashy, etc -- but it's still not as bad as sitting down, thinking it through, and deciding to do it anyway.

But many ordinary people commit acts of assault with tools or weapons.

As to bar brawl versus intentional whack, I get your point - but the person whacked in the former scenario would be in no less pain than the person in the latter.

And I don't think Tonya would be subject to any less criticism if she had assaulted Nancy all on her own in a moment of passion.
 
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jenniferlyon

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I absolutely disagree with the notion that innocent people don’t plea bargain. Reasons as to why people take plea deals even though they still claim innocence usually involve many factors such as poverty and race.

In Tonya's case, her reputation and her future livelihood were at stake. One might think she would want to clear her name as much as possible so that she might be able to earn a living as a skater. Going back to my earlier post, if I were writing Tonya's story, that's an area I where I would devote a great deal of thought. But her relationship with Gilooly would be my main focus. Do I believe he abused her? Yes. But do I believe that the only reason why she stayed with him was because she was afraid to leave him? No. My guess is, there was something keeping those two together. I don't know/understand what it is. To be honest, my brain doesn't want to go there. My brain doesn't need to go there because I'm not planning to write a Tonya story. But if I were, that's the main angle I would pursue. Maybe the movie does that? I don't know, but I'll find out soon enough. :)
 

Japanfan

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But her relationship with Gilooly would be my main focus. Do I believe he abused her? Yes. But do I believe that the only reason why she stayed with him was because she was afraid to leave him? No. My guess is, there was something keeping those two together. I don't know/understand what it is. To be honest, my brain doesn't want to go there.

There usually is something else going on in abusive relationships - people who have been abused in childhood are often fragile, hence prone to neediness and dependency, or to abusing another.
 

bardtoob

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IMO, the fact that she so quickly accepted a large fine, probation, community service, etc, is a good indicator that she had stuff to hide. Innocent people do not plea bargain.

(This is not to defend Tonya for what she actually did.)

Lots of Americans with low socioeconomic status do plea bargain. Tonya probably knew that Jeff was going to throw her under the bus whether or not she was guilty. Her choice is classic game theory. They both pointed the finger at each other to get a medium sentence rather than claim innocence for oneself in the hope that the other will not testify against oneself.
 
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skatepixie

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(This is not to defend Tonya for what she actually did.)

Lots of Americans with low socioeconomic status do plea bargain. Tonya probably knew that Jeff was going to throw her under the bus whether or not she was guilty. Her choice is classic game theory. They both pointed the finger at each other to get a medium sentence rather than claim innocence for oneself in the hope that the other will not testify against oneself.


She was no longer poor. I mean, I'm sure it happens, when people can't afford a lawyer, etc. But that wasn't the case with Tonya. And I highly doubt most people who plead guilty are innocent, either.

Of course she wasn't innocent -- otherwise, fight the charges and win. There was stuff to be hidden, and loyalty to Jeff -- neither of which would be the case if she were innocent. Especially not loyalty to him to such a degree that she would accept the punishment she was given and withdraw from Worlds, etc. No way in heck. Of course, she makes excuses up down and sideways, but I don't think for a minute she is sorry for her role in it all -- just sorry for where she wound up.
 

Japanfan

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Of course, she makes excuses up down and sideways, but I don't think for a minute she is sorry for her role in it all -- just sorry for where she wound up.

I would expect that when she looks back, she deeply regrets her role in it all - for herself at least, I wouldn't go so far as to say for the harm done to Nancy. But I don't think she is proud of that.

Her life was pretty much ruined, although after a long time she managed to put the pieces back together to a certain extent.

She could no longer do what she loved, FS, and IIRC could only ever skate again on public life.

She cannot but have asked herself how different her life would have been in the absence of that incident. She cannot but have wondered what her future would have been as a skater, in the absence of that incident.
 

skatepixie

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Truthfully, though, she wasn't skating her best at that point. Of course, it's easy to think of "what might have been" in terms of the best thing that could have happened. But it's unlikely she would have won major international medals. Her triple Axel was gone, she wasn't in the best shape of her career -- and without her best jumps, her skating had very little else left. Now, touring and coaching? That she really did throw away and she likely regrets it.

But, the way she, as a perpetrator (or at least on that side of the problem), it is disgusting when she portrays herself as the primary victim in all this. Did she have some lousy things happen to her in life? Sounds like it, though I have a hard time believing her about anything, at least at face value.
 

bardtoob

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She was no longer poor. I mean, I'm sure it happens, when people can't afford a lawyer, etc. But that wasn't the case with Tonya. And I highly doubt most people who plead guilty are innocent, either.

Poor is not equivalent to low socioeconomic status.
 
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skatepixie

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Poor is not equivalent to low socioeconomic status.

Not always, but usually. And yes, she grew up what is often called "white trash" -- but she can and did afford legal assistance. This is not some sad kid from the wrong side of the tracks being bullied into a plea bargain due to lack of quality council. There's no doubt in my mind that she struck a good deal, all told.
 

bardtoob

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Not always, but usually. And yes, she grew up what is often called "white trash" -- but she can and did afford legal assistance. This is not some sad kid from the wrong side of the tracks being bullied into a plea bargain due to lack of quality council. There's no doubt in my mind that she struck a good deal, all told.

I really do not think you understand Americans like Tonya. Nobody in her life situation has a pristine reputation they are trying to preserve, and some trouble with the law is typical and does not harm anybody in daily life except if it involves a felony conviction. Really, if felonies do not prevent you from paying your bills, you pay your bills and do not have a smack or meth addiction, then you are good.
 

Inessence

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I think the DA had her dead to rights on helping cover up so she really had no choice to plead out. That is unless she wanted to justify it by claiming gang rape and other threats to a jury and take her chances. She’s also risking at trial the garbage note being scrutinized for her prior knowledge to the assault. Another he said/she said story. Both way too risky given her public persona.
 
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skatepixie

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I really do not think you understand Americans like Tonya. Nobody in her life situation has a pristine reputation they are trying to preserve, and some trouble with the law is typical and does not harm anybody in daily life except if it involves a felony conviction. Really, if felonies do not prevent you from paying your bills, you pay your bills and do not have a smack or meth addiction, then you are good.

I don't think she had a pristine reputation by a long shot. But the large fine alone would have given her pause -- and made her attorney tell her not to plea -- if she were innocent. There's no way you or anyone else can convince me she wasn't "in a pickle" for darn good reason.
 

bardtoob

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I don't think she had a pristine reputation by a long shot. But the large fine alone would have given her pause -- and made her attorney tell her not to plea -- if she were innocent. There's no way you or anyone else can convince me she wasn't "in a pickle" for darn good reason.

I certainly think she was told by her attorney that the cost of defending her innocence would be more expensive than the fines, and so she did a cost-benefit analysis and accepted the deal and some punishment, regardless of the truthfulness of her innocence.

I do not think she knew that she would be banned for life from US Figure Skating.
 

skatepixie

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I certainly think she was told by her attorney that the cost of defending her innocence would be more expensive than the fines, and so she did a cost-benefit analysis and accepted the deal and some punishment, regardless of the truthfulness of her innocence.

I do not think she knew that she would be banned for life from US Figure Skating.

Resigning from the USFSA was part of the deal. The lifetime ban, including coaching, wasn't -- but it's a small difference, really.

I don't see any reality in which she's anything close to innocent -- any more than I do with OJ. Not saying the two things are the same magnitude, etc, just that they are both guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt," in my opinion.
 

skatepixie

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I never argued that . . .

Fair enough -- though I do think a plea bargain is a sign of probable guilt, especially when someone is able to plead to a lesser charge to get out of letting law enforcement have a real good "look see." ;)
 

bardtoob

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Fair enough -- though I do think a plea bargain is a sign of probable guilt, especially when someone is able to plead to a lesser charge to get out of letting law enforcement have a real good "look see." ;)

I think that is reasonable and likely, although I think the range of possibilities includes that it was just cheaper to accept a deal.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

Frangi & Piazza & Paul & Hektor & Theo. Oh My! 😝
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So here is some insider scoop regrading I, Tonya....

I just met with my friend this morning who is a VP over here at Lions Gate.

He saw the movie at a film festival and after the execs finished seeing it Lions Gate went in and made an offer on it. The producers of the film said that whoever buys it must also finance an awards campaign for Margot Robbie. Lions Gate refused that part and thus lost the distribution as that part is a condition.

I asked my friend what he thought of the movie. He liked it a lot and found it interesting.

It will be billed as a comedy. So if its gets noms for the Globes it will be in the comedy category. He said it is satire and funny at times but then shows the punching in the face of Tonya which made it awkward because it can go from funny to scenes like that where you absolutely do not feel like laughing.

(Side note, my friend doesn't follow skating nor into it. He has an objective/neutral mind and was viewing the film as a movie buff and a studio executive.)

He also said Alison Janney steals the show and for sure will be nominated in supporting and from what he has seen thus far should/could win that category for supporting actress.
 
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meggonzo

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In Tonya's case, her reputation and her future livelihood were at stake. One might think she would want to clear her name as much as possible so that she might be able to earn a living as a skater. Going back to my earlier post, if I were writing Tonya's story, that's an area I where I would devote a great deal of thought. But her relationship with Gilooly would be my main focus. Do I believe he abused her? Yes. But do I believe that the only reason why she stayed with him was because she was afraid to leave him? No. My guess is, there was something keeping those two together. I don't know/understand what it is. To be honest, my brain doesn't want to go there. My brain doesn't need to go there because I'm not planning to write a Tonya story. But if I were, that's the main angle I would pursue. Maybe the movie does that? I don't know, but I'll find out soon enough. :)

According to Tonya, the USFSA pressured her into staying with Jeff. I don't recall if it was something about they thought she was skating better and training when she was with him. It could have been some random remark that she took and ran with, and since she had trouble pleasing the judges and getting high marks, there was some way that she justified this to herself.
 

Tinami Amori

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Oh, no! If I were writing a Tonya story, there would be no Mary Sues.
Exactly. Back in "no-internet/social-media days", the only info i had about skaters is what's on TV + commentary, and in the news-papers (very little about skaters and their lives). Tonya or Nancy did not appeal to me, to put it mildly. Well, Tonya was not appealing for many very obvious reasons. I got the "class warfare" issues between the two, and usually side with the one who is on the receiving end of "jealousy". But Nancy was not appealing to me either.

I understand that she was a "classier person/dresser", comes from upper-middle class wealthy family, good schooling, good family, with thousand-dollar dresses, the "Kathrine Hepburn on ice".... :drama:

But something in Nancy's demeanor, manners, body language, verbal language, facial expressions and reactions, etc., did not say "upper middle class Lady with proper upbringing".... Her comments and manners were rather not elegant, rouge and pedestrian. Tonya was a natural from the "wrong side of the tracks". Nancy was positioning herself as from the "right side of the tracks"... but to me did not seemed so..
 

wouldacoulda

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Exactly. Back in "no-internet/social-media days", the only info i had about skaters is what's on TV + commentary, and in the news-papers (very little about skaters and their lives). Tonya or Nancy did not appeal to me, to put it mildly. Well, Tonya was not appealing for many very obvious reasons. I got the "class warfare" issues between the two, and usually side with the one who is on the receiving end of "jealousy". But Nancy was not appealing to me either.

I understand that she was a "classier person/dresser", comes from upper-middle class wealthy family, good schooling, good family, with thousand-dollar dresses, the "Kathrine Hepburn on ice".... :drama:

But something in Nancy's demeanor, manners, body language, verbal language, facial expressions and reactions, etc., did not say "upper middle class Lady with proper upbringing".... Her comments and manners were rather not elegant, rouge and pedestrian. Tonya was a natural from the "wrong side of the tracks". Nancy was positioning herself as from the "right side of the tracks"... but to me did not seemed so..
Nancy did not come from an upper middle class background, although she certainly wasn't raised in the same environment as Tonya. As a young skater, she was very athletic, but not a princess on the ice. The Scotvolds and her agent packaged her that way as she ascended the ranks. I don't think she ever saw herself in that role, but it was a strategy on the part of her team.
 

bardtoob

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But something in Nancy's demeanor, manners, body language, verbal language, facial expressions and reactions, etc., did not say "upper middle class Lady with proper upbringing".... Her comments and manners were rather not elegant, rouge and pedestrian. Tonya was a natural from the "wrong side of the tracks". Nancy was positioning herself as from the "right side of the tracks"... but to me did not seemed so..

Nancy always seemed angry with herself ("I am angry with myself for not doing better."). Conversely, Kristi Yamaguchi was always accepting of herself ("I did my best. It did not go well, but I will be fine. I will fix it and do better next time."). The contrast in attitude always struck me as an indicator of class.
 

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