Men's discussion thread: "... in the Olympic season everyone fights for himself"

[Sylvia]

Since we already have general pairs and dance discussion threads in the Trash Can, here's one for the MEN now that the Grand Prix has started... any subtitle suggestions?

Grand Prix Men's assignments grid as of Oct. 16, 2017: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents...gp-6/series-files-10/entries/7516-gp-men/file

GP standings after Rostelelcom Cup: http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2017/gpsmen.pdf

(Feel free to start one for Ladies, too.)

ETA @olympic's post from the U.S. Men's thread:

Chan has the best SS in town, and I say that as a non-fan.

Fernandez is in the mold of a Katarina Witt - His skating is not perfect and his SS while great is not overwhelming. (his spins for example are subpar relative to some of the other top men), but his big, brash personality on the ice carry the day.

Hanyu probably offers the best TES/PCS combo of the top men (depends on the program - the Asian themed programs are where he is at his best).

I would say that Nathan Chen has the TES advantage over almost everyone, but is playing catch-up on the PCS, and catching up he is! I think Boyang is also in this category, too - Great TES, better in PCS this past season.

ETA - I forgot Uno. He is also developing a great TES/PCS package. I think Nathan and Boyang have purer jump technique, but Uno equalizes it w/ the choreography.

Also, I am very interested to see Kolyada's marks outside of Russia. They were a farce at RC, so I think we need more info to see where he actually stands w/ regard to the top 6 men. Ten has the most talent outside the top 6, but he seems to continue having problems, so I still think Kolyada is the outsider w/ the biggest chance to get close to those six men.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ For thread subtitle suggestion @Sylvia: Battle of the Nemeses!

Replying to a post in U.S. Men's thread:

Right - Kolyada way over scored. I think Nathan needs more art in programs to get higher PCS. His moves look nice. But he'll need more going on to get top PCS. Compare his programs to Chan's or Fernandez's and you'll see what I mean.

It's in the eye of the beholder @SkateFanBerlin. Quite clearly some people can't see Nathan's balletic line, stretch and positions, and his obvious artistic growth from season to season, as well as recognize his innate musicality. Maybe it's that you don't like his style. If you listen to the various broadcast coverages of Rostelecom Cup, you will get different points of view: the Eurosport guys love Nathan and recognize how he's grown and what he's bringing to the sport this season with his very well choreographed programs with wonderful music selection. In fact most of the coverage was very positive toward Nathan and respectful toward Hanyu. Since Johnny loves Hanyu, he was more supportive of Hanyu, but with Nathan's win, NBC came around to pointing out the strong statement Nathan made at Rostelecom, and indeed all season long with how strategically he's approached each competition.

I believe Nathan and Raf have a good handle on where Nathan needs to improve and he's placed himself in an excellent position to this point in the season. There are just so many Nathan nitpickers around seemingly distraught over the upsetting of the status quo apple cart. I love the beauty of Nathan's quad loop which he had going in his first two competitions. It will be interesting to see if Nathan eventually brings it back with his more quad-packed free programs (which require a lot of concentration and advance planning re lay-out).

As far as Mikhail Kolyada, a number of people have been pointing out that Kolyada is trying to throw quads out there knowing that he doesn't fully have the landings under his belt yet. Eurosport guys say that Kolyada has great technique and skating skills, and I think that's true. What Kolyada lacks is full belief at the moment in his landings, and his music selection leaves a lot to be desired, in addition to his consistency and cohesiveness. But I wouldn't count out Kolyada at this point from being able to make an impact by the time the Olympics comes around. Of course, part of Kolyada being in the conversation is his abilities, but also the way the Russian fed shamelessly politicks to bolster and push up their top skaters in the standings in the lead up to every Olympics.

 

[Jun Y]

I am clearly biased but I think Aliev's short program is pretty great.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I enjoy Aliev's skating too, as he has a nice movement quality. He seemed to run out of steam though in his senior GP debut. NBC commentators mentioned that Aliev has said he's inspired by what Nathan Chen has achieved (especially since he competed with Nathan in juniors not too long ago). And as we know, Nathan was clearly inspired by Boyang's immediate technical success in seniors with the quad lutz/ triple combo, which helped land Boyang on the World podium, twice. And now Boyang is trying to emulate Nathan's style of skating (via the programs Lori Nichol has choreographed for both Nathan and Boyang this season).

 

[aftershocks]

I'm still urging posters discussing men in general (in U.S. men's thread) to come over to this thread to continue the conversation:

... Kolyada's over-scoring was astounding. I don't know what the judges were thinking.

I would take a listen to what the Eurosport guys had to say about Kolyada and the way he was scored. First of all, Kolyada does have that wonderful Russian technique, and he is a dancerly skater. We also know that RC took place in Russia, and the Russian fed is always in process of building up their top skaters, especially in the lead-up to every Olympics.

Right now Kolyada is trying to get those quads out there but he doesn't yet have his feet underneath him, nor does he have full confidence in all of his abilities either. I agree too that Kolyada has more maturing to do to obtain full command of his PCS abilities, and yet we know the judges will give the moon on PCS when a male competitor is armed with consistent quads and the kind of estimable Russian technique everyone in the sport kowtows too, usually for good reason. The main issue is that the judges too often over-score on every PCS category: For example, Tarasova/Morosov are a bit overscored on Choreo, Interpretation, and often on Performance Execution simply because of their boffo technical abilities and skating skills, despite not working on all cylinders re chemistry and connection. Not to mention their usually awful music selection and costuming. At least they aren't quite as boring right now as Zabijako/Enbert.

Johnny and Tara were way too harsh in being dismissive of Misha Ge for so-called 'skating slow' and for not trying to incorporate quads. I'm simply glad that Misha decided to come back for another season. I love to watch his passionate skating. And he skates clean programs while trying to put forward the very best that he can. He knows his body and his present capabilities, yet he's also never given up on trying to improve, and that's so admirable and commendable! He's a wonderful role model. Tara and Johnny can stuff their downplaying of Misha's lovely performance at Rostelecom Cup!

 

[barbarafan]

I'm still urging posters discussing men in general (in U.S. men's thread) to come over to this thread to continue the conversation:



I would take a listen to what the Eurosport guys had to say about Kolyada and the way he was scored. First of all, Kolyada does have that wonderful Russian technique, and he is a dancerly skater. We also know that RC took place in Russia, and the Russian fed is always in process of building up their top skaters, especially in the lead-up to every Olympics.

Right now Kolyada is trying to get those quads out there but he doesn't yet have his feet underneath him, nor does he have full confidence in all of his abilities either. I agree too that Kolyada has more maturing to do to obtain full command of his PCS abilities, and yet we know the judges will give the moon on PCS when a male competitor is armed with consistent quads and the kind of estimable Russian technique everyone in the sport kowtows too, usually for good reason. The main issue is that the judges too often over-score on every PCS category: For example, Tarasova/Morosov are a bit overscored on Choreo, Interpretation, and often on Performance Execution simply because of their boffo technical abilities and skating skills, despite not working on all cylinders re chemistry and connection. Not to mention their usually awful music selection and costuming. At least they aren't quite as boring right now as Zabijako/Enbert.

Johnny and Tara were way too harsh in being dismissive of Misha Ge for so-called 'skating slow' and for not trying to incorporate quads. I'm simply glad that Misha decided to come back for another season. I love to watch his passionate skating. And he skates clean programs while trying to put forward the very best that he can. He knows his body and his present capabilities, yet he's also never given up on trying to improve, and that's so admirable and commendable! He's a wonderful role model. Tara and Johnny can stuff their downplaying of Misha's lovely performance at Rostelecom Cup!

Misha is a great artist on the ice. His PCS were understated a lot. Unfortunately Politics are very much in play and his country has no clout.There also should have been greater distance between Hanyu's Pcs and Nathan Chen's. Chen is much improved but still not in the same ball game as Hanyu....and his performance was even sloppier than Hanyu's.

 

[A.H.Black]

Any Russian language speakers here? I'm curious to know what the commentators were saying during Nathan's free program. There were a a lot of "Da, Da, Da"s going on but I have no idea what they were about. I would love to have a general idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6RcoRn7UE

 

[aftershocks]

Misha is a great artist on the ice. His PCS were understated a lot. Unfortunately Politics are very much in play and his country has no clout.There also should have been greater distance between Hanyu's Pcs and Nathan Chen's. Chen is much improved but still not in the same ball game as Hanyu....and his performance was even sloppier than Hanyu's.

I agree with you about Misha, but I disagree with you about Hanyu vs Nathan. I don't think Nathan is given enough credit for his musicality and his artistic sensibilities, as well as his growth. The Eurosport guys definitely understand what Nathan brings to the sport, and they didn't overplay their praise either. OTOH, both Hanyu and Javi while having found their artistic niche to a degree, they both have weaknesses that are very conveniently and routinely overlooked in the rush to anoint them for their boffo suspended quads which they are not always consistent in flashing. There have been several occasions for both though in recent years where they managed to be consistent and brilliant throughout entire programs, but rarely.

By now we should realize the high price of quads means that men are rarely able to skate cleanly nor to pay dedicated attention to artistry throughout a quad-packed program. The sport will never wake up to truly take into account all of the complexities and the pressing issues that should be faced with more understanding and more contribution from all members of the skating community (as Raf so wisely noted in the recent interview posted by @TAHbKA in GSD).

 

[dinakt]

Any Russian language speakers here? I'm curious to know what the commentators were saying during Nathan's free program. There were a a lot of "Da, Da, Da"s going on but I have no idea what they were about. I would love to have a general idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6RcoRn7UE

I can translate verbatum a little later, but I watched this as it was happening and TAT is very complimentary about Nathan. She was saying at the end of the broadcast how happy she was with the event (meaning mostly Yuzuru and Nathan battle), and praising Arutyunyan to the skies. She thinks Nathan moves very well and is a all-around great skater.

 

[A.H.Black]

I can translate verbatum a little later, but I watched this as it was happening and TAT is very complimentary about Nathan. She was saying at the end of the broadcast how happy she was with the event (meaning mostly Yuzuru and Nathan battle), and praising Arutyunyan to the skies. She thinks Nathan moves very well and is a all-around great skater.

Thanks. I sort of got the feeling she was talking about Arutyunyan quite a bit.

 

[jlai]

Misha is a great artist on the ice. His PCS were understated a lot. Unfortunately Politics are very much in play and his country has no clout.There also should have been greater distance between Hanyu's Pcs and Nathan Chen's. Chen is much improved but still not in the same ball game as Hanyu....and his performance was even sloppier than Hanyu's.

Hanyu has great skills but seimei is an overrated program imho. From a program standpoint Nathan's lp has the ability to compete, for it has an Olympic feel. But the program can get better with more power and speed from Nathan, that much is true

 

[MAXSwagg]

I'm still confused how Aliev is just now a senior. I thought he should've moved up maybe two seasons ago instead of aimlessly chasing the junior world title.

Misha is great but if we're honest, yes, he is very slow. Especially leading into the jumps. But his choreographies are great.

I had to laugh when Mark Hanretty on BESP said Shoma's programs are "jam-packed." You can count the transitions of the top men and he consistently ranks the lowest. Additionally, CBC said judges were going to start scrutinizing jumps more this season. Yeah, that's not happening so I have no clue where they got that.

I also don't get this criticism of mostly Hanyu as being inconsistent and "hasn't skated a clean competition since GPF 2015." No man has, except maybe Boyang at 2017 Worlds. And the last person to do two and a half clean competitions was in fact Hanyu. Javier has never skated a clean competition in his life and the last time for Patrick was 2013 Bompard, I believe. It's pretty dumb to try to use consistency as a criticism of some men over others.

 

[shine]

I am clearly biased but I think Aliev's short program is pretty great.

I think his FS is beautiful. His style is sort of like one of those NA skaters with great musicality and attention to details whereas Kolyada skates very Russian. He was a very pleasant surprise for me at CoR. Too bad he ran out of steam toward the end.

 

[dinakt]

I'm still confused how Aliev is just now a senior. I thought he should've moved up maybe two seasons ago instead of aimlessly chasing the junior world title.

Aliev is barely 18, and he made steady progress year after year. I do not think he was "aimlessly chasing Junior title", I think he was quite happy with his Silver last year, and it was as high as he could realistically get. He moved to train with Rukavitsin in 2013, and I have read in a few places that people in skating considered that he started serious training borderline too late, and needs to play catch up.
I am a big fan of Aliev's skating and expression, but I also see that he needs to work on stamina and speed if he wants to join the World elite.
TAT was making his boot problems sound very serious during the broadcast. Shades of Stolbova's boot problems. TAT said Aliev's feet swelled up terribly after each practice and he was in great pain, and his practice over the last two months was very limited. She was complimentary of Dmitri actually showing up.

 

[dinakt]

TAT's main points during Nathan's skate:
- It is hard to follow up Yuzuru, especially with likely jet leg.
-His 4Lz is as if it is nothing! Like it's kid's play!
-great job saving both axels
-Lori Nichol is a great choreographer
-(after the skate):
Fantastic! That's the level of the fight, nobody wants to give it up!
-She really liked the program. Says Sonia Bianchetti criticized the program, but TAT adores it. Says she saw so many versions of "Rite of Spring", and how strong the music is, and it fits Nathan beautifully. The program is built to develop the skater, and she thanks Lori Nichol.
-then she compliments the Short, as well, and then compliments Rafael.
-that's the real high level for the Men's skating. Congratulations for everybody, it is happiness to see it.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Krasnozhon continues to build winning reputation
17-year-old working toward cementing himself as "full package" skater

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/10/23/259374292

Reigning U.S. junior champion Alex Krasnozhon has every reason to be proud of himself. Having won titles at Junior Grand Prix stops in Australia and Croatia this season, the 17-year-old is now considered one of the favorites to hoist gold at the Junior Grand Prix Final in December.

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ Thanks, I've just posted the Krasnozhon interview link in the U.S. Men's thread, too.

I've re-titled this thread with a translated quote from Brian Orser in his latest Russian interview (includes info on Hanyu & Fernandez) posted in GSD: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ic-season-everyone-fights-for-himself.102087/

ETA list of ISU SB total scores of 220+ after Rostelecom Cup/6 CS events/JGP series:

1 319.84 Shoma UNO JPN ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
2 293.79 Nathan CHEN USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
3 290.77 Yuzuru HANYU JPN ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
4 279.07 Javier FERNANDEZ ESP ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2017
5 271.06 Mikhail KOLYADA RUS ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
6 261.56 Max AARON USA ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic 2017
7 259.88 Jason BROWN USA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
8 255.33 Misha GE UZB ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
9 253.06 Jorik HENDRICKX BEL ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017
10 252.60 Boyang JIN CHN ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2017
11 250.26 Moris KVITELASHVILI GEO ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
12 250.01 Vincent ZHOU USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2017
13 249.88 Adam RIPPON USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2017
14 248.30 Keegan MESSING CAN ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2017
15 248.29 Liam FIRUS CAN ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic 2017
16 245.21 Nam NGUYEN CAN ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2017
17 239.61 Dmitri ALIEV RUS ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
18 234.07 Sergei VORONOV RUS ISU CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2017
19 233.72 Ross MINER USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2017
20 233.28 Michal BREZINA CZE ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2017
21 233.16 Yaroslav PANIOT UKR ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic 2017
22 233.05 Brendan KERRY AUS ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
23 232.79 Alexey EROKHOV RUS ISU JGP Minsk Arena Cup 2017
24 229.18 Matteo RIZZO ITA ISU JGP Egna Neumarkt 2017
25 228.91 Deniss VASILJEVS LAT ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
26 226.04 Alexander JOHNSON USA ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017
27 225.48 Alexei KRASNOZHON USA ISU JGP Croatia Cup 2017
28 225.30 Kazuki TOMONO JPN ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic 2017
29 225.04 Alexander MAJOROV SWE ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017
30 222.89 June Hyoung LEE KOR ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017
31 221.07 Joseph PHAN CAN ISU JGP Croatia Cup 2017
32 220.67 Julian Zhi Jie YEE MAS ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017

 

[DreamSkates]

Misha is a great artist on the ice. His PCS were understated a lot. Unfortunately Politics are very much in play and his country has no clout.There also should have been greater distance between Hanyu's Pcs and Nathan Chen's. Chen is much improved but still not in the same ball game as Hanyu....and his performance was even sloppier than Hanyu's.

He should have received much higher PC's than Kolyada (whom I also like technically but Ge is much more the artist).

 

[DreamSkates]

From Sylvia's post:
1 319.84 Shoma UNO JPN ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
Is he the one to beat this year? There is much talk about Hanyu vs Chen, but watch out for Uno.

 

[MAXSwagg]

He should have received much higher PC's than Kolyada (whom I also like technically but Ge is much more the artist).

Components can't go any higher! Everyone is already bunched at the top to where components really don't even matter.

 

[DreamSkates]

Components can't go any higher! Everyone is already bunched at the top to where components really don't even matter.

Shouldn't they serve a purpose though - separate skaters with the very best components with those who are not the best?

 

[Ka3sha]

He moved to train with Rukavitsin in 2013, and I have read in a few places that people in skating considered that he started serious training borderline too late, and needs to play catch up.

He has very unusual skating background: stated skating at 6 (little too late in Russia, usually kids start at 4, afaik, only Sakhanovich(7) and Konstantinova (9) also started pretty late)., trained on the open ice till he turned 11. He was also in the Russian junior team in skiing till 12.

 

[Ka3sha]

Misha is a great artist on the ice. His PCS were understated a lot. Unfortunately Politics are very much in play and his country has no clout.There also should have been greater distance between Hanyu's Pcs and Nathan Chen's. Chen is much improved but still not in the same ball game as Hanyu....and his performance was even sloppier than Hanyu's.

Misha truly is a real artist on ice but that doesn't mean that he automatically deserves high PCS. He is a musical skater, I love his style and his programs last/this season, but I don't think he deserves higher PCS than Kolyada (who was overscored in Russia, I have to agree with this). Being an artist isn't enough to get high PCS. Ge's SS skills are not as great as other top skaters and as Kolyada's as well. His programs don't have lot os transitions (and it also counts). He doesn't have great speed and power. I think that he's a very nice guy and good skater but I'd have him fifth, even behind Kvitelashvilli, who isn't that great in terms of PCS but had landed few quads unlike Ge...

 

[Ka3sha]

Tarasova was also really excited about Nathan's short program, said that that was a marvelous skate and a gorgeous program. Noted his hands and body movements, his step sequence and jumps, of course

 

[Sylvia]

@alilou posted Beverley Smith's Patrick Chan article in his fan thread a few days ago: https://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/patrick-chan-deletes-a-quad-for-now/

“I’ll admit it,” he said. “I’m not a technical genius when it comes to jumps. I’ve done what I needed to do to get to the top during my prime days. I accomplished that. For me to try to compete with the others, adding a quad flip, a quad Lutz, I don’t enjoy that. At the end of the day, I’m skating because I’ve continued to push myself into the 2018 Games, my third Games, because I want to enjoy it.”
At Skate Canada, Chan said he’s dropping the quad Salchow from both his short and long programs – for now. He’ll do only a quad toe loop in the short. And two quad toe loops and two triple Axels in the long. Not two quads in the short, and not three in the long. He intends to bring the quad Salchow back for later events. But for right now, he just needed not to do them.

Re. Nathan at Rostelecom Cup:

Chen caught Hanyu in a weak moment, but Chen has stepped up the magic markedly this year, serious about improving all of his question marks from last year. In other words, his component marks. He turned to Shae-Lynn Bourne for his short-program choreography and displayed an explosion of body movement. He’s no longer just some kid with quads. He now looks like a powerful contender. His components were about four points behind that of Hanyu. And he’s 17.
...
Chen still doesn’t maximize his GOEs in the way that a Hanyu or a Chan can. But it’s early days and it will be fascinating to watch how he grows.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Tarasova was also really excited about Nathan's short program, said that that was a marvelous skate and a gorgeous program. Noted his hands and body movements, his step sequence and jumps, of course

Thats amazing to hear!

It seems Tats tho is a big fan of Rafael's students, including Wags.

 

[Ka3sha]

It seems Tats tho is a big fan of Rafael's students, including Wags.

She has her favorites and can be biased at times but she truly loves this sport and appreciates real talents

 

[MAXSwagg]

Thats amazing to hear!

It seems Tats tho is a big fan of Rafael's students, including Wags.

Also Mao (who was really the only one who "understood" her, imo) and Hanyu (she suggested he do Notte Stellata, and he has sent her gifts before).

 

[Seerek]

Misha truly is a real artist on ice but that doesn't mean that he automatically deserves high PCS. He is a musical skater, I love his style and his programs last/this season, but I don't think he deserves higher PCS than Kolyada (who was overscored in Russia, I have to agree with this). Being an artist isn't enough to get high PCS. Ge's SS skills are not as great as other top skaters and as Kolyada's as well. His programs don't have lot os transitions (and it also counts). He doesn't have great speed and power. I think that he's a very nice guy and good skater but I'd have him fifth, even behind Kvitelashvilli, who isn't that great in terms of PCS but had landed few quads unlike Ge...

Ge's lack of ice coverage is more apparent live than on TV (it's not bad, but not top shelf either). To some extent, the judges are already factoring in the weaker skating skills in their allocation of the component scores, putting Misha behind D. Ten and Aliev in this component category. Misha makes up for the weaker skating skills with superior interpretation and choreography, which is why he placed 4th in components overall.

A comparable skater to eyeball component scores this weekend (Skate Canada) relative to Ge would be Jorik Hendrickx (a non quad-jumper in a field that features many quad jumpers).

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep definitely @Seerek, Misha's skating skills score should not be higher than some, but he should score very high in choreo, interpretation and performance execution when he skates clean, which he has been doing.

From Sylvia's post:
1 319.84 Shoma UNO JPN ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
Is he the one to beat this year? There is much talk about Hanyu vs Chen, but watch out for Uno.

That's quite true, but Uno is over-scored in my opinion due to judges being mesmerized by the way he oozes over the ice like butter. Uno is extremely talented and magically precocious, and it seems his strengths camouflage his weaknesses.

However, over-dramatic facial expressions and smooth moves do not make one a genius in all PCS categories. And Shoma still has technique flaws that tend to be overlooked. In his first year in seniors, the judges greeted him with fairly low scores comparative to other top men. But in his subsequent senior seasons, he's suddenly got mega powerful PCS. I think he still has things to work on and maturity will help. It's always interesting when judges send the signal that skaters have nothing to work on re PCS.