Twice is nice, Three times the charm

[Vash01]

I think Ina Zimmerman used POTO for two seasons but there were some changes, even in parts of the music, IIRC.

Oksana Baiul used the Broadway medley in 93 and 94 for her LP.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I think there should be a deduction for using the same program....except go KO and her SP. it always feels like cheating somehow.

 

[manhn]

In terms of it working, I think Joubert doing The Matrix again at 2006 Worlds was a great move. Buttle's return of S&D worked for him, but having to retrofit it to IJS made the program less inventive. I missed the moves in the field!

 

[Japanfan]

That is actually the opposite of what happened. Sale and Pelletier were originally awarded silver. The Russians won gold and many thought it was fixed for them not the Canadians.

When I say fixed, I refer to the view that the TPTB intended for S/P to win in a close contest. When Le Guin (sp?) admitted to voting for B/S under pressure, she seemed to feel to guilty, and I had to wonder if those pushing for a S/P win had thought she was 'on their side'.

Discussions on this board favored B/S as more deserving of the gold. In fact, Jamie Sale is one of those most reviled skaters of all time on the board.

 

[Marco]

Michelle Kwan only used Spartacus for one season, but she did use "The Feeling Begins," "Rach" and "East of Eden" for more than a season. In fact, she had at least three very different programs to "EoE" -- my favorite being the World Pro version one user once called "a meditation in spirals."

In fact, she used EoE in 5 different seasons - as part of her 1994-5 free skate; as one of her exhibition pieces in 1995-6; as one of her experience pieces in 1998-9; as her short program in 2000-1 and in parts of the 2001-2 season.

 

[MacMadame]

No I mean she seriously always kept her SP and LP for 2 seasons, maybe a Canadian ladies uber like @danafan might be able to confirm.

I was reading Phanuef but seeing Osmond.

 

[Vash01]

When I say fixed, I refer to the view that the TPTB intended for S/P to win in a close contest. When Le Guin (sp?) admitted to voting for B/S under pressure, she seemed to feel to guilty, and I had to wonder if those pushing for a S/P win had thought she was 'on their side'.

Discussions on this board favored B/S as more deserving of the gold. In fact, Jamie Sale is one of those most reviled skaters of all time on the board.

Not to derail the conversation about twice/thrice, it felt like S&P were skating Love Story forever. Actually they used it only twice - 2000 worlds and 2002 Olympics. Other times were in GPF and exhibitions. It was a refreshing program in 1999-2000 but by 2002 it wasn't competitive in terms of difficulty. However, they chose it for the Olympics because they were not comfortable with the Rach2 LP, and they could skate to Love Story in their sleep, as someone here said. I do believe that the powers wanted S&P to win in 2002 but it was imperative that they skated clean.

From what I read at that time, Marie Lagne was verbally attacked by one of the British TPTB as "how could you place B&S first?" I thought that as someone from Western Europe MRL was expected to go for S&P who were clearly favored by the western judges, starting in late 2001. I think the higher level of difficulty of B&S's program may have swayed some judges but only MRL defected. When she complained about pressure, I thought it was from both sides, which made it difficult for her.

Anyway, by that time I was sick of Love Story. It held no charm for me, but apparently it did for many in the USA. Skating fans could see that it was an easier program, but the majority saw only a cleaner skate (and our media trashed B&S enough to make people believe that they were totally undeserving of the gold)

IMO Jamie was disliked on this board because of her behavior on the podium. Compare that with M&D in 94 or Kerrigan at the same Olympics.

 

[coppertop1]

Anyway, let's' get this back on topic. To me, when I see Wagner reusing her programs from two seasons ago it seems a bit-- safe. Yes, it worked for her. She won a medal that year. But in the Olympics, it would be a good idea to show fresh material.

Yes, Phaneuf did often keep her prgrams. She used the same programs in 2006-07 and 2007-08, and then in 2008-09, 2009-10, and 2010-11, 2011-12.

Chan kept his POTO freeskate for the 2010-11 season because he felt it was never skated to his potential in 2009-10. He was injured for much of 2009-10.

 

[gkelly]

I think there should be a deduction for using the same program....except go KO and her SP. it always feels like cheating somehow.

An actual deduction would need to be an either/or decision, with no shades of gray or room for judgement. For that reason, it would be impossible to apply fairly to skaters in different situations.

There can be other ways to officially encourage top skaters to present new programs from one year to the next in order to keep up audience interest without unduly penalizing non-top skaters (or top skaters returning from injury, etc.).

And there could be ways to allow judges to penalize lack of originality or lack of variety in a skater's performance regardless of whether they're using the exact same music as in previous years or just something similar . . . or to reward them for a newly choreographed program that does show originality even if it uses music the skater has skated to previously.

 

[AxelAnnie]

gkelley - nice answer.

I remembered something while reading your post. My ex-husband lost interest in figure skating during the time that everything was on TV...all the GP events....etc. For him, it was the same thing he had seen before. So, if a skater re-uses a program (except KO - LOL) it adds to the "I already saw that" issue.

I think there could be a way to manage re-use of programs by having skaters get a waiver for injury (i.e. I didn't really get to use the program) or some other circumstance, but it would be another set of problems.

I am really disappointed in AW. And, I love that program. But I wanted to see what she would take on next. The third year of a program will, in my opinion, be hard to sell.

 

[coppertop1]

I think with the GP series, programs feel tired a bit faster. Before there wasn't as many and it wasn't a series, so programs didn't go stale. We now have the Challenger Series and the GP series. Skaters often compete in both and when you keep a program and have that many competition. It feels like a program is worn out.

 

[Vash01]

Instead of penalizing skaters for reuse, I would like to see them rewarded for originality. I think in ice dance they do.

A skater who plans on skating to the same music two years in a row will be/is more comfortable with that program (esp. the LP) than someone skating a brand new program. Ultimately though the ice is slippery and anything can happen in a competition. Still. I would like to see a new program rewarded, but how to do that without penalizing the repeaters? I am at a loss.

 

[viennese]

I liked Wagner's Black Swan program and wouldn't mind if she went back to that one. Though there'd be some Dueling Swan drama, of course.

 

[Japanfan]

Still. I would like to see a new program rewarded, but how to do that without penalizing the repeaters? I am at a loss.

That's very difficult, because there are so many considerations. For example, a repeated program might be more difficult than a new program, or the skater might be repeating the program due to having been injured or ill and not skating the program to its potential.

The ISU could disallow repeating any programs in a second season, but that obviously has not been seen as an issue.

I don't mind a program being repeated, if I like the program and it grows in the second season. S/Z's Turandot is a case in point. It was ultimately forgettable when they skated it at the 2002 Olympics (although to be fair the gold medal scandal took attention away from them and the fact that China had won its first Olympic medal in pairs ever was largely ignored).

When they skated the program at the 2003 Worlds, it was iconic - at least IMO, but I think I'm not the only fan to consider that one of the greatest performances of all time.

 

[gkelly]

Instead of penalizing skaters for reuse, I would like to see them rewarded for originality. I think in ice dance they do.

There's a bullet point for "Originality of the composition" under the Composition (formerly Choreography) component for all disciplines. As far as I know it refers more to doing something unusual or new in relation to current and historical skating practice in general, not in relation to what that particular skater did in previous seasons.

And it's more about originality of what the skater does with the skating than about the choice of music to do it. Which is more original: to use the same music in a completely different way, or to use almost the exact same choreography to a different but similar piece of music?

Also different judges will have different standards for what counts as originality based on how long they've been involved with skating, in what part of the world, at what levels, whether they often watch videos of current or past performances or only watch live skating when they're judging or otherwise on hand as an official, etc.

If a skater has an original move she invented, or a unique choreographic approach to interpreting a familiar piece or style of music, or uses a new style of music that has rarely been used for skating before, there's room to reward that originality in the CO component. If the skater keeps doing that same move or that same program year after year, it won't look so original after a while and judges will stop rewarding it.

And different skaters will have different opportunities to present their programs in events where international judges will be likely to see them.

What looks new and original to a younger judge who is new to the international scene and hasn't seen many programs from past eras or from national events of other countries might look like old hat to a veteran judge who remembers when this skater's coach was using the same music or the same moves in the same ways several decades earlier.

A breakthrough skater making an international debut with year 3 of a program that was never seen outside of national or local, mostly untelevised, events will have more familiarity with her own program but will be unfamiliar and may look quite original to judges and fans from other parts of the world.

A veteran medal contender who brings back a favorite piece of music she's skated to for a whole previous season that included a Challenger Series event, two GP events plus the GP Final, a televised national championship, Euros/4Cs, and Worlds, and Japan Open will look very familiar to audiences and to judges who officiated at or attended several of those events and/or watched them on TV or online. But she may have been practicing the program for only half the time of the previous skater. She also may have rearranged elements significantly during that time to accommodate new skills, new rules, injuries, etc., so the muscle memory is not there.

Judges can use what they know about skating history, the current field, and this particular skater's history to assess the originality of the program and mark that bullet point up or down. But what they know may or may not be a strong reflection of how much of an advantage the skater actually gets from reusing this music.

A skater who plans on skating to the same music two years in a row will be/is more comfortable with that program (esp. the LP) than someone skating a brand new program. Ultimately though the ice is slippery and anything can happen in a competition. Still. I would like to see a new program rewarded, but how to do that without penalizing the repeaters? I am at a loss.

I don't think it's appropriate to consider past performances when scoring the skating on the ice today. Certainly not efficiently. You can't eliminate whatever judges might already know about a skater's competitive history or personal life, any more than you can guarantee that they all know the same kinds of things about all the skaters.

If viewer fatigue is a problem, the ISU could offer out-of-competition rewards/penalties completely unrelated to the competition scoring for skaters who use different music each year, or contrasting kinds of music in short and free programs the same year, etc. Maybe financial bonuses for new work or fines for repeats that apply only to top skaters who have won plenty of prize money. Maybe invitations to events (competitions or shows) that offer additional financial opportunities and/or publicity for the skater. Maybe showcase them in ISU-sponsored videos. The kinds of things that would be offered to top skaters and not unestablished or lower-ranked skaters anyway -- this could be one criterion for determining which top skaters get the offers.

And of course skaters who are popular with audiences because of their music choices or interpretive skills or on-ice personality are likely to get more opportunities from show/tour promoters, media, sponsors, etc. But the ISU can't control that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

How did this thread get to page 2 without a mention of Petrova & Tikhonov's "Four Seasons" that was skated at least once in a total of... four seasons (or more?). GPF having two LPs was the cause for 1-2 of these seasons, but I think we all saw that program fifty-eleven times.

Maybe choosing that music and skating it in 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2006, they took 'Four Seasons' literally.

 

[Japanfan]

There's a bullet point for "Originality of the composition" under the Composition (formerly Choreography) component for all disciplines. As far as I know it refers more to doing something unusual or new in relation to current and historical skating practice in general, not in relation to what that particular skater did in previous seasons.

If the skater keeps doing that same move or that same program year after year, it won't look so original after a while and judges will stop rewarding it.

But skaters do keep doing the same move and same program layout year after year. Originality is really the exception to the the norm in FS, as is evident in the number of skaters who choose to skate to music that has been used over and over again forever. How many skaters consider that Carmen or POTP have been skated to over and over again, and avoid such old warhorses for that reason?

To give an example of the same move being repeated endlessly, Slutskaya's bielman spin comes to mind. Or Med's one arm over the head when she jumps. She gets rewarded in points for that, rather than losing points due to a lack of originality.

 

[moebius]

In that case at least all the top contenders should re-use their old programs to make it fair.

 

[Marco]

The difficulty though is that judges are supposed to judge the individual skate, not compare it to a past performance. To evaluate originality etc based on what someone did last season does not seem fair. It also becomes quite unfair for skaters who aren't as well off and can't afford new programs every season.

And what if someone keeps 90% of the same music / program but changes the music for the step sequence for example?

 

[gkelly]

But skaters do keep doing the same move and same program layout year after year. Originality is really the exception to the the norm in FS,

Yes. Which is why it makes more sense to reward originality when it exists rather than to penalize its absence.

 

[SmallFairy]

A good choreographer is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Lots of skaters from smaller nations can't afford to make new programs every year. So, should they get point deductions for "not being original"?

 

[MAXSwagg]

Recycling works for some, and doesn't work for others. If a skater is great, I can rewatch a program over and over. Mr. Chiddy could do nothing but Chopin or Four Seasons/Concerto grosso and I wouldn't care at all. Same for Yuzu and Chopin. Besides, he will be around long enough to do at least a few more new programs.

 

[Japanfan]

In that case at least all the top contenders should re-use their old programs to make it fair.

But that wouldn't be fair, due to differences in program complexity as well as differences in the circumstances that lead a skater to re-use an old program. If a skater hardly has a chance to compete a program due to injury or illness, the old program is still pretty much new. It's very different if a skater uses an old program to avoid the challenge of having to create a new one - but even then, ice is slippery and the skater still have to deliver.

Is there any evidence that skaters with old programs fare better in terms of results than skaters with new programs? So far as I know, there isn't.

And sometimes skating an old program works out to a disadvantage. For example, when Elvis Stojko brought back his 1994 Bruce Lee LP for the 2002 Olympics, it was just sad. He didn't skate the program as well as he had in '94, nor medal, and it clearly looked like Elvis had not grown as a skater. Elvis said that he was trying to fulfill 'something' that had eluded him in his career, but he certainly didn't do it by bringing back that program. I doubt he ever did do it, but maybe he did by moving on from skating and exploring other avenues in life (i.e. motorcycle racing or even dog rescue, which he and his wife Gladys Orozco (sp?) are very committed to at present).

 

[Frau Muller]

How many times did the Protopopovs skate to Moonlight Sonata?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Some skaters do the same program year in - year out. They may use different music, but the blocking is identical.

 

[coppertop1]

Stojko was retiring in 2002, so he probably wanted to exit his competitive career by using his two favourite programs. While it worked in Skate Canada and the Canadians, it definitely fell flat at the Olympics. Another example of using an old program and not working is Surya Bonaly at the 1998 Winter Olympics. She brought back her Four Seasons program that she used in 1993 and 1994. Part of the issue is that skaters change over the years. A program that worked four or six years ago may not fit them as well. Some people on this forum have said they'd like Ashley to revisit her Black Swan program. While it worked for her then, she was still fairly young and new and was just starting to hit her peak. It wouldn' work as well now. Just like if Kaetlyn Osmond did her Mambo or Fosse SP. It worked for her then when she was a teenager who had a sassy, showy style. Now that she's matured it wouldn't work as well.

I don't mind a skater keeping a program for one season especially since some programs don't really hit their potential. S/Zs Turandot program is a great example. They were just starting to blossom as artists in 2001-02. They were in full bloom in 2002-03 and onwards.

 

[gkelly]

How do you know which skaters are getting an unfair advantage by repeating music or repeating choreography to different music, vs. which are just leveling the playing field for themselves because they have so many other disadvantages to overcome?

For example, financial resources, access to daily ice time and the quality of that ice time (how crowded, how often resurfaced, etc.), access to choreographers, outside expenses such travel for skaters based in remote locations, injuries or other health issues, family issues, other limitations on their ability to train consistently, etc. etc.

Defining one of those things as an unfair advantage and building in point penalties would only make things more unfair for skaters who have many other disadvantages and have to rely on the one thing they can control to have any chance of holding their own.

Plus it would be impossible to keep track of all those factors, and very difficult to keep track accurately of when each skater crosses the line between appropriate use and inappropriate reuse of the same program, or how to define "the same."


And different fans get tired of skaters' programs at different times for different reasons, but none of those reasons have anything to do with fairness to the other competitors.

 

[MacMadame]

Some people on this forum have said they'd like Ashley to revisit her Black Swan program. While it worked for her then, she was still fairly young and new and was just starting to hit her peak.

Ashley was 20 and was starting her fifth season as a Senior. For a Ladies Senior competitor, 20 is not 'fairly young' and being in her fifth season is not 'new.' I would say she was just starting to reach her potential though.

 

[Xela M]

The only thing that will make Ashley competitive at the Olympics is to skate clean. Going back to Moulin Rouge makes that a real possibility. So it's a good move as far as I'm concerned.

 

[briancoogaert]

IMO, Petrenko is the king of reusing the same program. It is really a shame...