WADA confirm insufficient evidence against nearly all Russian athletes implicated in drug scandal

[Judge Dred]

Well, it's useless conversing with persons who are intent on engaging in obsfucation, prevarifiction, unfounded accusations, finger-pointing distractions, projecting, and construction of false arguments in order to continue living in their glass houses.

Talk about the the pot calling the kettle black! It is my considered opinion that you are an idiot.

 

[Willin]

@hanca It's rather insulting to say that people with diagnosed medical conditions are faking it for an advantage, no? If it was such a problem (and WADA would know - they investigate TUE's before approving them), wouldn't WADA institute a policy requiring independent experts to confirm each diagnosis and use of the medication?

@Meoima Many athletes, even at the same training facility have different doctors, so there's no way any bad egg doctor could really manipulate more than a handful of athletes at a time. The main reason for this is insurance - to go to a doctor and get stuff prescribed you need to have an insurance plan that the doctor's office takes (unless you want to pay upwards of $200/visit). Presumably, not all athletes have the same insurance, so not all will be able to go to the same doctors.
Even then, when you get a medication prescribed (some medications more than others), your insurance company reviews its necessity. If they decide that you don't need the medication and there's no legitimate medical condition you need treated with it (or the prescribing pattern of the medication is not based on their evidence-based standards), they may choose to not pay for the medication, meaning you'll have to pay the full cost - which can be an insane amount of money for one dose, let alone a doping regimen. This is probably why doping in the US is more common in pro sports like baseball, where the athletes have the $$$ to choose a doctor that will help them dope and the $$$ to pay for the drugs. Most Olympic athletes in the US are not well off enough for it.

Many US athletes are tested frequently within the country even for domestic competition. For instance, all USFSA Nationals competitors who are in an international qualifying division are drug tested (or they were when I competed there). Some club sports with large organizations require drug testing (I know Volleyball and Swimming do). All US athletes competing internationally are drug tested randomly by the USADA. Those competing in college sports and high school sports leagues are also required to get drug tested by their governing bodies - the NCAA (for college) is pretty intense about it, but high school leagues vary. It's still possible to get away with doping here, but you have to understand you have to be very careful and have very good doctors to do it because of the frequent testing. If any US athlete could get away with it I'd suspect it would be one of the older athletes who is no longer competing in college sports or club competitions.

 

[Judge Dred]

As someone with experience in healthcare

If you are an example of someone with experience in healthcare, then no wonder it is in such a mess

@hanca It's rather insulting to say that people with diagnosed medical conditions are faking it for an advantage, no? If it was such a problem (and WADA would know - they investigate TEU's before approving them), wouldn't WADA institute a policy requiring independent experts to confirm each diagnosis and use of the medication?

It is TUE you toehead!

 

[hanca]

@hanca It's rather insulting to say that people with diagnosed medical conditions are faking it for an advantage, no? If it was such a problem (and WADA would know - they investigate TEU's before approving them), wouldn't WADA institute a policy requiring independent experts to confirm each diagnosis and use of the medication?
.

I am not saying that all athletes with medical conditions are faking it. Nevertheless, the system as it is leaves a lot of space to cheat without being caught by persuading a doctor to diagnose a condition that can't be easily measured by any objective measurement. One of such condition is ADHD, but there are many others. And it would be naive to think that athletes won't use that opportunity. Not everyone is honest, you know?

And whether WADA would institute a policy requiring independent experts confirming diagnosis- I think you are very optimistic (or naive) and believe too much in WADA. We are talking about organisation that banned Meldonium without bothering to do research on whether it enhances performance, and research about how long it really stays in human body. And then they just started banning athletes who didn't do anything wrong. So I have serious doubts about their competence.

 

[bardtoob]

... and research about how long it really stays in human body.

OMG ... You really don't know anything about the subject, do you? Just, WOW! ...

I am fine banning any drug WADA does not know how long it really stays in the human body.

 

[aftershocks]

Talk about the the pot calling the kettle black! It is my considered opinion that you are an idiot.

Hmmm, more projecting. And around in circles we go with ignorant name calling, chest-beating, foaming at the mouth and useless ego oneupmanship. And so it goes... Take a look in the mirror some time, if you dare, and try judging yourself.

 

[barbarafan]

Well, it's useless conversing with persons who are intent on engaging in obsfucation, prevarifiction, unfounded accusations, finger-pointing distractions, projecting, and construction of false arguments in order to continue living in their glass houses.

Thank-you so much for putting this in a nutshell. Having lived with someone for over 30 yrs with ADHD/OCD but who was only diagnosed with it in his fifties I see the diff. with and without drugs and it was hard to read some of the drivel spewed out here. I hope this is the end of the tangent of ADHD because like they say.-"You can't fix Stupid"

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Ah, save me

If there is a massive misdiagnosis of the athletes with asthma or whatever (I heard those allegations about the biathletes a lot), then I suggest the poor misadvantaged countries with central sport organizations, and apparently without any serious problem of organizing massive doping schemes, have their athletes also get misdiagnosed and use the same medication

For some reason it doesn't happen, and instead they get involved in much more complicated and much less successful schemes. I wonder why. Something tells me that it's probably because getting those permits for the drugs are not as easy as some make it sound, and probably requires more than just one personal doctor writing a note.

 

[Shi]

I'm kind of late to this discussion as I don't look at the board very often anymore, but someone was kind enough to send the link to this discussion to me, since I have severe ADHD and take medication for it. It was fascinating to read and reminded me a lot of my daily struggles in explaining what ADHD is to people who know very little about it or have very strong stereotypes about it.

Not to re-open pandora's box, but while there's definitely a lot of over diagnosis of it, I've seen people here sharing their experiences of living with someone who has ADHD, and I thought I'd maybe share a few tidbits of my own as a person with ADHD and how it had a massive impact on my life. It's something I feel people very often know very little about and I feel that being open about it can benefit others as well.

It's a common misconception to have ADHD directly related to "concentrating in school". It's the most common effect because that's where it's easiest to see it manifest - we spend much of our time growing up in school and that's where it is the easiest for the difficulties to show up. As a girl, i was growing up in a time in which it wasn't known girls could have ADHD. The research for that showed up in early 2000s, and the reason for that is that it manifests differently with girls and is much more subtle in terms of behavior, while with boys you are more likely to see them making a lot of noise and literally climbing the walls. Girls are more likely to sit at the back of the class and stare at the window, which is what I did when I actually showed up to classes. I often wouldn't, because at some point of my life I figured out that I couldn't sit through a class - and worse, I was struggling with the idea that I must be a complete idiot, because how come when everyone else sits through class they know what it was about, and I never have a clue? Instead I spent my time suffering because trying to sit through classes felt like someone lit a fire in my brain. And that's a good and simple example for how ADHD impacts self esteem, even with things like "school", because your brain chemistry is preventing you from doing something that looks like it should be simple. I was lucky that I had a good visual memory, and I've been able to catch up on material on my own, and produce good exams and papers, and managed to get through some of the best schools in my country and even a Masters degree in UC Berkeley (at which point I was finally diagnosed), but I did that without showing up to classes or doing homework, not out of laziness - to be able to teach myself everything to get through all those years of school can't be considered lazy - but just because my brain struggled with the structure, with sitting down, with doing anything until really pushed into a corner and having no choice.

And this was the part that you all know about ADHD, right? That it causes troubles in school. What about home? I could never get stuff my parents asked me to do done, I'd forget, I'd get distracted in the middle. My parents thought I was ignoring them on purpose, or that I didn't give a damn about what they said and wouldn't believe me that I was trying. That caused a lot of hard time at home too. And ADHD comes in the way of social interaction - kids with ADHD struggle to read social cues, and struggle to understand boundaries of conversation (the impulsive part is not helping here!). It makes ADHD people talk a lot, talk very fast, not knowing when to stop and what not to say. I had no friends growing up because that kept putting people off, and people just assumed that if you ignore their "shut up already" face it's because you are too self centered, but it was just a struggle. It's literally feeling a disconnect between your thoughts and your actions, I know I want to shut up now, but I just keep on talking.

We keep talking about ADHD being a mental thing, but what about its physical health impact? ADHD often causes sleeping problems. Your brain is constantly awake, constantly working, constantly moving. Since I was a kid it kept me awake. I couldn't fall asleep, I couldn't stay asleep. I'd wake up every 20 minutes. I'd sleep very little. I've been tired every day of my life. I started getting sick more quickly because if you are sleep deprived for too long your health suffers. A lot.

Now, want to know about medication? About its great impact and the advantages it gives me over other people?

When I take the medication, I can actually get things done! I still need to work hard and I don't do it in a super speed, but I manage to sit down and work on whatever I am doing and it doesn't feel like someone lit a match in my brain! I manage to actually finish things I intended to finish.

Even more remarkable in my new super powers - I managed to sit through meetings at work and actually have a clue what people were saying all the way through! Even when the meeting is super long. You know, like an hour.

It makes me speak a little slower, because it kicks my brain into a balance. So I can actually shut up, and when I talk, I still speak fast because I am a fast speaker, but it's clearer and I don't sound like I am trying to catch some invisible train of thought at all times. And I can actually stop talking when I tell myself to stop talking. Still suck at reading facial cues, though, so got myself into the habit of telling people it's ok to tell me to shut up.

And the best part? Because the medication balances my brain, it allows me to get into some sort of cycle, in which I go to work, and achieve things, and go home and go to bed, and actually FALL ASLEEP. And, like, stay asleep. And sleep through a few hours straight. I've never done that until I took my medication. I've never felt what it was like not being completely exhausted until I started taking the ADHD medication. All the ADHD medication does, when you have ADHD, is to bring you up to a baseline of being a functional human being.

Having said that, it was mentioned that ADHD does give you some advantages, which is true, but it should be taken into account that it's more true when you don't take medication so it is basically compensation for your disadvantages. Kids with ADHD are often sent to do sports because they have a super high energy level and it helps to monitor it - I did a lot of sports myself growing up and I loved it. I'd actually won't take medication when I do sports, though, because the activity in itself works like a medication would, but that's just a matter of scheduling. If I have other things during the day that require me to be a functional human being I'd take it - for example, I often don't take it during the weekends because I have more time to do activities then, but I'd take it if I know I have to do a massive house cleaning, for example. Or if my family is visiting, because it helps with those basic human interactions and I know my mother really struggles with how I speak when I don't take the medication because it's way too fast and frantic for her and she can't understand me so gets frustrated with me really quickly.

The other thing that is an ADHD "advantage" is the ability to "hyperfocus". Basically, while we're crap at focusing on *anything*, give us something we really love and we'll get very intently focused on it for hours. But again, more true when you're not on medication, as the medication basically effects the chemical balance, so it sort of "erases" extreme impacts of the ADHD to both directions.

It does work differently on people who don't have ADHD, which is basically how the medication is often abused as a stimulant drive. I do agree that in some cases / countries the diagnosis procedure needs to be worked on, but even in its basic level it needs to fulfill many conditions and symptoms, and you need to have a demonstrated impact of it in more than one life "environment" (i.e if you just can't sit through classes that's not enough to get you diagnosed with ADHD). The older you are, the more detailed the diagnosis is, because you also need to show that you've had it since you were young (it can't show up when you're older), and that it had been constant.

And before I crawl back into my distracted hole where I have to get stuff done, I just wanted to thank the people who shared their stories and tried to explain and educate about ADHD. I know it can be frustrating to talk to people who refuse to get it, but the way I see it, when I write about it it's not just a direct discussion with someone, it's also for the benefit of people who might be reading this but not participating in the discussion, so it's important.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm kind of late to this discussion as I don't look at the board very often anymore, but someone was kind enough to send the link to this discussion to me, since I have severe ADHD and take medication for it. It was fascinating to read and reminded me a lot of my daily struggles in explaining what ADHD is to people who know very little about it or have very strong stereotypes about it.

Not to re-open pandora's box, but while there's definitely a lot of over diagnosis of it, I've seen people here sharing their experiences of living with someone who has ADHD, and I thought I'd maybe share a few tidbits of my own as a person with ADHD and how it had a massive impact on my life. It's something I feel people very often know very little about and I feel that being open about it can benefit others as well.

It's a common misconception to have ADHD directly related to "concentrating in school". It's the most common effect because that's where it's easiest to see it manifest - we spend much of our time growing up in school and that's where it is the easiest for the difficulties to show up. As a girl, i was growing up in a time in which it wasn't known girls could have ADHD. The research for that showed up in early 2000s, and the reason for that is that it manifests differently with girls and is much more subtle in terms of behavior, while with boys you are more likely to see them making a lot of noise and literally climbing the walls. Girls are more likely to sit at the back of the class and stare at the window, which is what I did when I actually showed up to classes. I often wouldn't, because at some point of my life I figured out that I couldn't sit through a class - and worse, I was struggling with the idea that I must be a complete idiot, because how come when everyone else sits through class they know what it was about, and I never have a clue? Instead I spent my time suffering because trying to sit through classes felt like someone lit a fire in my brain. And that's a good and simple example for how ADHD impacts self esteem, even with things like "school", because your brain chemistry is preventing you from doing something that looks like it should be simple. I was lucky that I had a good visual memory, and I've been able to catch up on material on my own, and produce good exams and papers, and managed to get through some of the best schools in my country and even a Masters degree in UC Berkeley (at which point I was finally diagnosed), but I did that without showing up to classes or doing homework, not out of laziness - to be able to teach myself everything to get through all those years of school can't be considered lazy - but just because my brain struggled with the structure, with sitting down, with doing anything until really pushed into a corner and having no choice.

And this was the part that you all know about ADHD, right? That it causes troubles in school. What about home? I could never get stuff my parents asked me to do done, I'd forget, I'd get distracted in the middle. My parents thought I was ignoring them on purpose, or that I didn't give a damn about what they said and wouldn't believe me that I was trying. That caused a lot of hard time at home too. And ADHD comes in the way of social interaction - kids with ADHD struggle to read social cues, and struggle to understand boundaries of conversation (the impulsive part is not helping here!). It makes ADHD people talk a lot, talk very fast, not knowing when to stop and what not to say. I had no friends growing up because that kept putting people off, and people just assumed that if you ignore their "shut up already" face it's because you are too self centered, but it was just a struggle. It's literally feeling a disconnect between your thoughts and your actions, I know I want to shut up now, but I just keep on talking.

We keep talking about ADHD being a mental thing, but what about its physical health impact? ADHD often causes sleeping problems. Your brain is constantly awake, constantly working, constantly moving. Since I was a kid it kept me awake. I couldn't fall asleep, I couldn't stay asleep. I'd wake up every 20 minutes. I'd sleep very little. I've been tired every day of my life. I started getting sick more quickly because if you are sleep deprived for too long your health suffers. A lot.

Now, want to know about medication? About its great impact and the advantages it gives me over other people?

When I take the medication, I can actually get things done! I still need to work hard and I don't do it in a super speed, but I manage to sit down and work on whatever I am doing and it doesn't feel like someone lit a match in my brain! I manage to actually finish things I intended to finish.

Even more remarkable in my new super powers - I managed to sit through meetings at work and actually have a clue what people were saying all the way through! Even when the meeting is super long. You know, like an hour.

It makes me speak a little slower, because it kicks my brain into a balance. So I can actually shut up, and when I talk, I still speak fast because I am a fast speaker, but it's clearer and I don't sound like I am trying to catch some invisible train of thought at all times. And I can actually stop talking when I tell myself to stop talking. Still suck at reading facial cues, though, so got myself into the habit of telling people it's ok to tell me to shut up.

And the best part? Because the medication balances my brain, it allows me to get into some sort of cycle, in which I go to work, and achieve things, and go home and go to bed, and actually FALL ASLEEP. And, like, stay asleep. And sleep through a few hours straight. I've never done that until I took my medication. I've never felt what it was like not being completely exhausted until I started taking the ADHD medication. All the ADHD medication does, when you have ADHD, is to bring you up to a baseline of being a functional human being.

Having said that, it was mentioned that ADHD does give you some advantages, which is true, but it should be taken into account that it's more true when you don't take medication so it is basically compensation for your disadvantages. Kids with ADHD are often sent to do sports because they have a super high energy level and it helps to monitor it - I did a lot of sports myself growing up and I loved it. I'd actually won't take medication when I do sports, though, because the activity in itself works like a medication would, but that's just a matter of scheduling. If I have other things during the day that require me to be a functional human being I'd take it - for example, I often don't take it during the weekends because I have more time to do activities then, but I'd take it if I know I have to do a massive house cleaning, for example. Or if my family is visiting, because it helps with those basic human interactions and I know my mother really struggles with how I speak when I don't take the medication because it's way too fast and frantic for her and she can't understand me so gets frustrated with me really quickly.

The other thing that is an ADHD "advantage" is the ability to "hyperfocus". Basically, while we're crap at focusing on *anything*, give us something we really love and we'll get very intently focused on it for hours. But again, more true when you're not on medication, as the medication basically effects the chemical balance, so it sort of "erases" extreme impacts of the ADHD to both directions.

It does work differently on people who don't have ADHD, which is basically how the medication is often abused as a stimulant drive. I do agree that in some cases / countries the diagnosis procedure needs to be worked on, but even in its basic level it needs to fulfill many conditions and symptoms, and you need to have a demonstrated impact of it in more than one life "environment" (i.e if you just can't sit through classes that's not enough to get you diagnosed with ADHD). The older you are, the more detailed the diagnosis is, because you also need to show that you've had it since you were young (it can't show up when you're older), and that it had been constant.

And before I crawl back into my distracted hole where I have to get stuff done, I just wanted to thank the people who shared their stories and tried to explain and educate about ADHD. I know it can be frustrating to talk to people who refuse to get it, but the way I see it, when I write about it it's not just a direct discussion with someone, it's also for the benefit of people who might be reading this but not participating in the discussion, so it's important.

Thank you for sharing your personal story with us. I found it very informative and hope others did too.

 

[bardtoob]

@Shi . . . Thanks for sharing!