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Yu-Na, Carolina & Mao: A Comparison

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Yuna is very expressive usually but her programs this year aren't choreographed as well as the past programs, maybe that's what Oleada meant?
  2. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

    Not entirely, though I think Mao & Carolina have much better programs than Yu-Na. But it's also what I mentioned earlier - I think Carolina & Mao have always been musical, but they've shown such obvious development in the past few years that Yu-Na hasn't - to the point that they've really outshined her in that respect. They move with purpose, and musicality, and their interpretation is more nuanced and emotional, than Yu-Na. Yu-Na shows off her programs well enough, but there's not a lot of range, depth or feeling there. It just comes across as very scripted or acted or shallow (I can't really find the right word). I mean, I watch Mao do the footwork in her SP this year, and the end of Carolina's LP, and it's so expressive and well done and perfect to that particular music, hitting every note, and I don't think Yu-Na's ever quite done that.
    SpiralGirl and (deleted member) like this.
  3. ehdtkqorl123

    ehdtkqorl123 Active Member

    Well, everyone's opinion is subjective so I don't think it is necessary to convince others
  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I thought Oleada was only stating her opinion. I like that she actually backed up why she thought the way she did. It was only when people took her criticisms of Yu Na Kim personally and started to challenge Oleada directly that she felt the need to respond.
    oleada and (deleted member) like this.
  6. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Danse Macabre, ETDR, Scheherazade, Lark Ascending, Bond girl, Gershwin, Giselle, and Arirang. Especially Danse Macabre, El Tango De Roxanne, Scheherazade(the program that I fell in love with instantly and made me a fan of Yuna's after Worlds), Bond girl, and Giselle--these programs hit almost every note of the music on every element. One of most praised things by commentators about Yuna was that she was so musical, marking subtle nuances in her programs and I totally agree. If you say you have not seen that in these programs, I don't know what else to say. I'd quite agree to some extent that programs from THIS SEASON might not measure up to her very best ability shown in those programs but saying Yuna is not musical, or no more musical than Mao or Carolina is an understatement about Yuna's quality.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  7. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Well-Known Member

    I have always thought both Mao and YuNa were extremely talented and interesting to watch (for some reason I never took to Carolina's skating all that much. But for me Mao's 4CC's program made me excited and inspired for the first time in years. Her program while not perfect was just magical. It was the first time since Michelle left the scene and COP was ushered in that I have watched a performance of anyone more then once. I could watch the ending to her program over and over. For me she reached that magical formula of musicality, dance, technique, passion and beauty that I have missed so much over the last 6 years. I honestly thought I would never see a performance that would inspire me to watch repeatedly ever again - she just reached a level where the whole equaled more than the sum of its parts and that is when I get captivated. While YuNa has had some remarkable skates - I've never felt that from her, although I know others have.
  8. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

    well, she clearly hasn't had any improvements in these areas.
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    ITA !
  10. loulou

    loulou Let It Snow

    It's so nice to see these kind of comments on Asada. Thanks for posting.
  11. miki88

    miki88 Active Member

    I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is tired of Wilson's choreography. I think his choreography can be just as generic as Lori's. Wish Hanyu can go back to the choreographer for his Romeo and Juliet LP. :( I would have liked to see Yuna work more with Tom Dickson. Danse Macabre was more popular but Tango Roxanne is the better program. I have never been a fan of Kostner but I have developed a sense of new found respect for her since last season because of the interesting choreography. She really seems to spend a lot of time on her choreography and interpretation of the music. I love both of her programs this season and I think she has the best interpretation of the ladies now.
  12. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

  13. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Maybe people have different interpretations of muscality? Or that different people perceive musicality on different levels?
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    For me, the best female skater in the past few years in terms of musicality, dance, interpretation, passion, commitment to the choreography, and pure movement has been Akiko Suzuki...no question. IMO, no other female skater compares to her in that respect.
  15. karlon

    karlon New Member

    IMO, I don't agree with this.
    Yuna KIM & Mao ASADA - 2010 Olympics FS

    yuna kim - Meditation from 'Thais'
    when I saw this exhibition, I felt music flows from the her edge.
    yuna kim - danse macabre
    it was superb... one of the best programs I can remember in a long time.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  16. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Agreed, though I like these three ladies artistically as well.
  17. tdl

    tdl Member

    Thank you!
    Personally, I don't see anything special in Yuna's Danse Macabre at all. When I first heard she was going to skate to that music I was so excited as it seemed an absolutely perfect chice for her, but when I actually saw the program it was such a letdown. Not Yuna's fault, she did quite a good job selling it, but the choreography was very disappointing to me.
    I still think Tango de Roxane and Lark Asceding were Yuna's best programs and nothing has come even close since.

    As far as artistry is concerned, I completely agree with oleada. Yuna's interpretation usually leaves me cold as it often feels too choreographed and superficial. At 2007 Worlds SP though, I thought she was fantastic!
    Interestingly, when I saw her Tango again in a show recently I thought it was not nearly as impressive performance-wise as it was 5 years ago. Maybe it's difficult to compare a show and a big competition like Worlds, especially since she probably didn't get to practice the program much before that show, but then one could expect she would be more free and expressive and able to bring that program to a new level with the maturity and experience she has now. Unfortunately, I didn't see it.
    Anyway, I think she is a better skater overall now and even her lines got much better since, so she obviously must have been working on that, even if there is still a lot left to be desired in that department.
  18. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    I would say the overriding difference (as far as scoring is concerned) is that Yuna has both a correct lutz and flip, she does them with great consistency and big GOE, and tacks a 3toe at the end of them with ease. And because her 3-3 is not 3toe-3toe, she can also add on a valuable 2A-3t in the LP , which she also does with great consistency and +GOE. This is such a HUGE scoring advantage for her, it cannot be overstated.
    As has been mentioned, she doesn't have the full complement of jumps (loop is mostly awol), often makes a mistake or two, but with all these high quality 3Zs and 3Fs , and a 3-3 and a 2A-3T in the repetoire, she ends up pretty much ahead of Carolina (low base value on jumps in recent years) and Mao (low base value and/or underrotations and low GOE).

    That said, I do think we got some fantastic musicality out of Mao and Carolina in recent years when the were focusing on overall program quality, sometimes at the expense of jump content. Mao's footwork this year looks tailor made for Swan Lake, Carolina's for Bolero. Yuna's looks like the same generic 'Wilson /Yuna" that could have been placed in any of her programs over the last decade. Still, Yuna's footwork is complex, fast, covers the ice and she invests her whole body into her footwork, it's just not as muscially special as the other two's. I think Carolina has the best skating skills, and Mao has the best stretch and body positions, and both invest more into distinct artistry than Yuna (what we've seen of the programs this year). These are great qualities , but they don't lead to huge scoring advantages in COP, the way Yuna's jumps do.
  19. karlon

    karlon New Member

    Five years ago, kim had not presence, such as 2009 worlds, 2010 olympics.
    in 06~07, i think mao's sp was better than yuna. I think it's Mao's best program
    06 ~ 07 sp, nocturn
    I think yuna's best program is danse macabre.
    08~09 sp, danse macabre
    IMO, Mao was ahead until 06~08, yuna was better in 08~10
  20. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Anyways I have been very surprised to learn recently that Yuna is not
    that well received as I thought. Her jumps are great, yes, but what made me draw into her was mesmerizing expressions and body movement in her programs. Look at the way she sells the bond girl program. The girl can do anything. And she did say after Vancouver that she wanted to improve her artistic ability to a new level which many, including myself, saw in Arirang program.

    Is it that Wilson made so generic, boring programs for her? Her tango program afterall was a retouch by him--tango in her junior season is totally different from what we saw in 2007-- Lark Ascending was also his work. Given the close relationship between them, one would think that he is giving works of his best abilities to her.

    Is it that Yuna is such a reserved skater that it's so difficult to be invested in her performances in general? Are judges rewarding her with high PCS--actually Yuna has been getting the highest PCS in any competition she entered since 2007-- just for the mere fact that she is landing big jumps very well?

    Is it that Yuna doesn't seem to push herself enough? Or is the expectation bar too high? Is she that much artistically not talented compared to Mao and Carolina? Granted, this season these two seem to do so well with more interesting and beautiful programs than any others', probably the best ones they've had in their entire career. But I don't think Yuna's programs this season deserve that much criticisms in comparison.
  21. Jebrista

    Jebrista Active Member

    I think transitions is very difficult to judge for these three.

    I think Yu-Na has many areas where she does 4-5 crossovers in a row throughout the program. Also her jump entries (especially for lutz) are always the same and take a lot of time (especially lutz).

    For Carolina, I agree with the fact that her entrances for jumps take long, and sometimes include little chases/hops/whatever they are (salchow), but due to her ability to gain speed without as many crossovers, her transitions other than her transitions going into jumps are quite good.

    Mao, in my opinion, has the best transitions, especially into jumps. She does nice little steps into the loop and flip, and her steps before and after spins are very good, and keep the program going.

    So I would place transitions:


    Also, Choreographed Sequences:

    Mao has a beautiful choreographed sequence that goes perfectly with the music.

    Yu-Na's includes her beautiful ina-bauer which immediately goes into double axel , it's pretty. It's also speedy and interesting.

    Carolina's goes with the music, and I like the idea of the many different/complicated arm movements, but I don't think there is enough "stuff." There is a spiral (relatively short) and a little hop, but there aren't many steps in the sequence.

    For the choreographed sequence I place them:

  22. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

    Yu-na> Mao = Caro

    Yu-na lacking musicality? Nonsense! She is in complete osmosis with music,which has been mentioned time after time by commentators around the world, as her signature quality.
    As for Mao's artistry, I don't feel anywhere near 'art' or 'artistic' when I watch a skater with such a deer in the headlights look the whole time.
    Caro is a great athlete who fails to elicit me either like or dislike.
  23. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Where did Jebrista say that Mao telegraphed her jumps?
  25. FSUSF

    FSUSF New Member

    It has been always like that here :)
  26. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    It's ok, she's more adored than disliked. Take solace in that.

    Even though I personally think there are other skaters who have superior artistry and attributes in their skating, I can't deny the power of Kim and the way she managed to balance all that's necessary to become a convincing champion.
  27. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

  28. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    There are many of us who think highly of YuNa but think she falls just a bit short of 'complete osmosis with music' :lol:
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  29. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

    I think Yuna is very musical, as much as Mao and Carolina.
    She just isn't as polished as these 2 in this moment. In these past seasons we have seen improvements in their expression, body awareness and music versatility, where as Yuna has stagnated a bit in that sense. Part of this is because of the programs she has and because she hasn't competed at all. She's still got time to improve and I'm sure by next year she will have better choreography
  30. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    I am always somewhat bemused at statements that Yuna is somehow lacking (relatively speaking) artistry and/or musicality. In reply, I can only quote the immortal Inigo Montoya:

    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    In regard of musicality in particular, I am of the view that Yuna is among the most musical ladies skaters, ever. It's one of the reasons I am a fan of hers. I've already written at length about the whys and wherefores in this and other forums, so I won't repeat them.

    It is, however, a curious thing that those in a privileged position to assess these aspects (e.g. former champions, prominent commentators, the judges who hand out the actual marks) almost uniformly have a much higher regard for Yuna's aesthetic qualities than many in this forum. Generally, she is ranked among the very best by the former group. On the other hand, if I were a new skate-watcher, and read only the comments I see here, I might be forgiven for thinking that the topic was Irina Slutskaya.

    I ran across an obscure message board in the season leading to the Vancouver Games. The title escapes me now; but it was a small forum run by and for music professionals (of the classical type). Some of them played for a living, many were teachers/professors. During the run-up to the Olympics, Yuna developed a surprisingly devoted following there, one of the many reasons being her highly developed sense of musicality and expressiveness, which this group found especially congenial.

    Such evidence, while hardly systematic, gives some impetus to considering the possiblity that there are legitimate aesthetic reasons why Yuna, at her best, has received 9s for the artistically-related components.

    A couple of caveats:

    1) Sometimes a performer or performance simply aren't your cuppa tea. I certainly get that. But fairly often, in my view, personal preferences are conflated with judgments regarding artistic/musical competence.

    2) Given Yuna's extended absence, it is certainly possible to make an argument that she hasn't shaken off all of the rust yet. I don't agree with the more extreme versions of this argument, but the moderate versions are at least plausible and can be debated. But this is not the same thing as saying that she was not that good artistically even at her peak (to which, I repeat: the "expert" testimony and competitive evidence constitute a prima facie case which needs to be explained).

    3) And, no, I don't think Yuna is perfect in every way. ;)