Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rickmercer, Apr 11, 2014.
I have never been a fan of Chan's skating, but you cannot deny that what he does with his blades is simply a notch higher than the rest of the pack. Not only are his edges divine, but he uses every spare moment of his program to highlight excellence in turns, MITF, and bits of footwork. The only skaters who have put together programs that are even in the same universe during his competitive era would be Abbott and Kozuka. You have skaters like Oda, who have the goods, but they don't put out programs that reflect their full capabilities. Just look at Amodio...say what you want, but the boy has great edges. Unfortunately, he'd rather dance in place to gather strength for long stretches of jump/crossovers/jump/crossovers instead of showing good skating.
When it comes to Sasha, she was extremely gifted as a performer, and less so as a skater. The only part of her actual skating that really stood out were her spins, and as others have said, Arakawa and Slutskaya were not far enough behind for it to give her a significant advantage. To her credit, she really DID make great strides in the skating skills department but not enough for it to become a true strength.
If Sasha had Patricks skating skills, jump quality, footwork, and difficult choreography she would probably have the same 4 or 5 advantage over Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, Hughes as Chan has over everyone else by the judges. Unfortunately she has none of those things. The only areas she is the female equivalent to Patrick are interpretation, spins, and lines and style.
Sasha did very well under the new scoring system. I don't really see why the haters need to pounce as if she is some mid level skater. She was a star for almost 2 complete quads and the judges loved her.
The crazy PCS scores being issued today are the judges way of propping up certain skaters similar to the 6.0 system. Only now the judges have the ability of giving someone a PCS of 9.5 vs. 8.75 when only .01 scoring differential is needed to win. Under the 6.0 system it was 5.9 vs. 5.8 with ordinals being a factor also. It gives them greater leverage to keep certain skaters propped up. (Although it didn't work out that way in Sochi).
Cohen's base score at was .2 higher than Arakawa's, so even though Arakawa did not have any 3/3's, she still did one more multiple-jump element than Cohen, and if a skater falls or nearly falls on her first two jump elements and biffs the 3/3 sequence (base reduced by 80%) and loses 7 points on nearly half of her jump elements, and has Level 2 steps, she'll have quite a deficit to make up, especially when her opponent got two -1 marks in total, no?
Then perhaps your thread title should be, "Why haven't Kozuka and Oda been treated like Chan under IJS"
Oda has childish artistry and programs, so doesnt take advantage of his combination of skating skills and strong jumps. Such immature skating cant be given high PCS no matter how strong the skating skills are. Kozuka is inconsistent as heck and always crashing and burning. He skated a great LP at the 2011 worlds but bombed the short so couldnt win with Chan skating 2 perfect programs.
Perhaps the judges weren't immune to all of the overhype. I thought she was overscored in some of the pcs categories. Yes, she had nice extension, toe point, and presentation but that doesn't make up for what's lacking and there's a lot lacking in her skating.
So would you prefer Trixie Schuba? Her foundation was wide and strong.
Those aren't the only two choices. Also, Schuba had the best figures in the world, but I don't think it translated to her free skates from what I saw. Lynn's skating skills were way more impressive in the free skate.
Schuba did show moments of quite good skating skills in the free skating even though. There were little bits of footwork and edge steps she did which were very nifty and nice. The rest of her skating was hefty and cumbersome though, and her spins were horrible.
No. But you kind of proved my point. Most everyone points to Schuba as undeserving of beating Janet Lynn under the rules of that era because she was bland and mechanical. When you are an appealing skater, it's harder for people to look beyond pointed toes and exquisite extension to examine the lack of depth in their fundamental skating.
Regarding my last post, Sasha wasn't deficient by any means. She just lacked the consistency that comes from developing solid technique in her edges and some of her jumps. But her other qualities were wonderful and should not be disregarded.
I dont think most believe Schuba is undeserving of her titles. All those who understand the rules know why she won and her wins arent controversial. They just frusterate the heck out of people, that is all. Schuba should be respected greatly though, and I think is in her own way. The sport is called figure skating, and she is probably the best ever at the foundation of what the sport is. She was born in the right time of course, and would be insignificant today.
Sasha cant be compared to Chan. She doesnt have the godly skating skills, the huge and beautiful jumps, the amazing footwork, or the complex choreography and transitions he does. He even surpasses her in her strengths- spins, elegance, lines, performance skills. So it makes sense he has a 5 falls cushion on his competitors, while she doesnt have any fall cushion on Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, or Suguri.
What's so special about Patrick's lines?
His back line is unbelievable, he never slouches for a moment (Hanyu bad-posture please take note). His back is imo the best in the world.
The rest of his lines are nice but not incredible.
Basic skating skills, transitions. Chan was/is in a different league compared to Sasha.
Chan probably shouldn't have the advantage that he has had but his blade work is to die for. I love to watch him move on the ice. He has powerful jumps because he has killer on ice and air technique so even when he falls or falters it's usually just one portion of the jump that has deduction.
Sasha is not the same type of skater as Chan. She is a wonderful skater with flexibility, line and skating that is very distinct though. I also think she had nice looking jumps in the air. She used what she could do with grace and originality but her blade work wasn't great. It's hard to ever see that though since she moved well and beautifully. She found ways to make foot work and moves in the field look good and have difficulty. And she improved a lot over the years so you can see she worked hard no matter that people liked to accuse differently.
To see her improvement, compare her 2002 LP to her 2006 one and one can see a marked difference. To me, the level of actual skating skills improved greatly. She still wasn't in the same league as Kwan, Arakawa, Suguri, and Slutskaya in that respect, but she closed the gap a bit and brought those other things that people loved. I think you can even see the difference between 2003 through 2004 and 2006.
Patrick also doesnt deserve the 5 fall or so margin he is given by judges, and some of his wins are a huge controversy and semi farce. I agree Sasha's basic skating improved alot after 2002, but never to the point it was as good as her main rivals, let alone much better than anyone else like Chan is. Had Sasha Chan's skating skills she would atleast have a 2 fall margin over Kwan, Slutskaya, and the rest, and it would be deserved, and that is all he deserves as well but is so loved for whatever reason he is given more. Maybe some big paycheques behind the scenes from Skate Canada, who knows.
Sasha also improved her choreography, transitions, and musical interpretation alot after 2002. Before 2002 she just had great spins, spirals, and nice positions, but not much else. Bare empty choreography and not much musicality. Her Carmen in 2002 shows this.
Patrick Chan never really had a "5 fall cushion" over other skaters though, did he? If he actually won a competition with a total 5 falls between the SP and LP, that was probably due to the closest competitor having like 3 falls or a fall and a few pops or something that was also pretty costly.
Well I remember him having 4 falls and winning Skate Canada easily over a 1 fall Oda once, and that is when Oda was one of the very top in the world, maybe 2nd to Chan.
At Russia later that year he had the equivalent of 7 falls of mistakes counting the falls, a downgrade call on his quad, zayaking, and still nearly beat a totally clean Verner.
I basically stopped counting after that as I was too disgusted to study the protocals of any event Chan was in, erred, and still won in, but his cushion at one point anyway was probably atleast 5 falls. He won the 2011-2012 grand prix final and 2012 worlds with a ton of mistakes too, although it probably wasnt 5 falls worth. Worlds last year was a disaester, 4 huge mistakes in the long and still winning over Ten who had 2 clean and beautiful skates.
Even the Games he had 5 mistakes over the 2 programs, even if none was an outright fall. Hanyu had only 2 and a higher planned base value in the LP by 8 points, and Hanyu still barely won.
He deserves a fall cushion over his competitors more than anyone else, certainly more than Sasha ever would. Sasha is a beautiful and great skater when she is on, but I can still understand given the shortcoming of her skating how she could even possibly skate clean and lose to Slutskaya, Arakawa, or Kwan if they are spectacular. However I still find it too much.
Sasha had the position levels. Chan had the skating skills. What Chan had was more easily rewarded, although that might seem counterintuitive.
Chan (for most of his career) had the quad and quad/triple combo (excellent ones). Sure, a couple of skaters did the quad sal but it was very rarely landed. Cohen did not have anything close to a consistent 3/3 while a direct competitors did have it.
ITA. She was a great figures skater, from what I have heard. Those days the rules were different and there is no reason to devalue the titles she won fair and square.
BTW it's 'frustrate' (not 'frusterate')
I don't know why, but this post made me laugh I agree about Chan's cushion, which was ridiculous at times and even beat Yagudin's "2 falls" cushion.
Her spiral was so undeniable, so perfect and magical in all respects except the strength as reflected in the ice coverage. Slutskaya got amazing speed holding a spiral from start to finish, and Sasha did not. It's one of the trade offs with strength vs flexibility.
Until last year Chan actually had a 4 falls cushion. Earlier he had beaten a no-fall Ten, no-fall (but a few flaws) Takahashi. It was only after a real challenger with potential appeared (Hanyu), the judges started being tougher on Chan. His basic skills are outstanding, and he easily deserves a one fall cushion, but no longer a fall and multiple bobbles type cushion.
Sasha had beautiful lines and positions, but to me, the most important thing is how the blade moves across the ice. Her skating skills, though vastly improved, were never top notch like Chan's. She had to skate clean, to beat a clean Kwan or a clean Slutskaya who had better skating skills.
Winning Olympic silver with 2 falls, over skaters who skated clean? It was in the earlier days of IJS, but Cohen did have her fair share of favoritism and a pretty comfortable PCS cushion. And that's when she didn't even come close to Chan's skating skills or technical content. I also found her overrated.
Or you can find a great balance in both. Look at Michelle Kwan and Shizuka Arakawa.