Who is the better skater: Kwan or Cohen?

[kwanfan1818]

I think Sasha`s short program from the 04 Worlds was nearly unbeatable under 6.0, and would have been under COP.

I was at 2004 Worlds, where I first met @Rosaleen. Arakawa was and still is my favorite Ladies' skater of the triples era, but her 3/3 was underrotated, and she tended to Lip, and I was wuzrobbing Cohen. While her flutz was obvious, Rosaleen explained how her "fly" wasn't really a fly, and some other technical issues, all of which were supposed to matter in the SP, although Kwan's spin that traveled home to LA and back didn't seem to hurt, but I digress.

On a pure performance level, though, Cohen grabbed me by the throat. I've never seen anyone else like her.

 

[attyfan]

IIRC, Cohen was in first after the SP at the 2004 Worlds; it was in the FS that she faltered. Kwan, OTOH, was able to keep her head (despite the streaker) and skate a great FS. If that streaker had disrupted Cohen, then I don't think she would have landed a single jump. If mental focus is a skating skill, then Kwan wins, hands down!

 

[giselle23]

To be fair to Patrick, he competed with content much, much, much more difficult than Michelle Kwan, so the falls are more understandable.

He's also a male skater. No female skater skates with content as difficult as female skaters. This comparison is ridiculous.
Patrick has great skating skills as Mens' skater; Michelle had great skating skills as a Ladies' skater. Apples and oranges.
What's next, comparing Yuna Kim's jumping to Hanyu's?

 

[kwanfan1818]

IRC, Cohen was in first after the SP at the 2004 Worlds;

And why do think that would stop me from wuzrobbing Cohen, when someone gave her a 5.6 for tech?

 

[MAXSwagg]

He's also a male skater. No female skater skates with content as difficult as female skaters. This comparison is ridiculous.
Patrick has great skating skills as Mens' skater; Michelle had great skating skills as a Ladies' skater. Apples and oranges.
What's next, comparing Yuna Kim's jumping to Hanyu's?

Yes, but on the other hand you can compare technique (Hanyu has better jump technique than Yuna, btw).

 

[giselle23]

Yes, but on the other hand you can compare technique (Hanyu has better jump technique than Yuna, btw).

Not sure you can even compare technique. Not as many men, for instance, are flutzers. I think this has more to do with strength than good technique. Or to put it another way, men have less need to concentrate on lutz technique because the jump is easier for them. On the 3lutz , btw, Kim is just as good as the men.

 

[attyfan]

And why do think that would stop me from wuzrobbing Cohen, when someone gave her a 5.6 for tech?

Because, under 6.0, the number wasn't that important. For example, if the judge who gave Cohen a 5.6 for tech did not give any other skater a higher score -- or did not place any other skater ahead of her, then that judge didn't rob Cohen. Even if the score was lower than it should have been, it didn't make a difference.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Because, under 6.0, the number wasn't that important. For example, if the judge who gave Cohen a 5.6 for tech did not give any other skater a higher score -- or did not place any other skater ahead of her, then that judge didn't rob Cohen. Even if the score was lower than it should have been, it didn't make a difference.

First, IIRC, it was not a sweep, and second, that was not supposed to be true for the SP, where there were supposed to be mandatory deductions for various flaws. Rosaleen pointed out where those deductions should have been for Cohen, had the rulebook been followed. From the higher tech scores she received, they clearly weren't, especially since she wasn't starting from a comparatively high base score.

 

[LilJen]

How have junior mints not been brought up?

Meh, I want to hear more about chocolate-covered almonds.

The other day I did QUITE enjoy a Theo bar: dark chocolate with coconut. mmmmmmmmm.

 

[jenny12]

I'm better than both of them.

 

[briancoogaert]

Yes, but on the other hand you can compare technique (Hanyu has better jump technique than Yuna, btw).

Well, no
Both have good technique on some jumps, and not that good on others. They have their strenghts, and different technique. That's doesn't mean one is better than the other.

 

[Badams]

I love this thread. I feel like I've been sent back in time...hello 2000's!

 

[nikjil]

I loved both Kwan and Cohen but Kwan was definitely the better skater. I saw them both live for the first time at 1998 Nationals. Although I didn't realize at the time, Cohen's skating in novice was a preview of her entire career. Great spins and extension on the spiral but weak edges, wobbly feet, and poor jumps, ended up not medaling in an event she should have won. What I always realized wanted for Cohen was for a great choreographer to take her in hand, give her some really unique music and choreograph a program that wasn't dependent on flexibility tricks to succeed and have her challenge herself for once.

 

[Fiero425]

Not sure you can even compare technique. Not as many men, for instance, are flutzers. I think this has more to do with strength than good technique. Or to put it another way, men have less need to concentrate on lutz technique because the jump is easier for them. On the 3lutz , btw, Kim is just as good as the men.

The LUTZ is just hard for women; no matter how skilled! To this day, the only skater I can think of who really scratches that outside edge every time was Maria Butyskaya @2:30! She really exaggerated it so no one could accuse her of flutzing; even though one of the ugliest executions upon landing! I can only remember one performance that I truly loved and she was unfairly shafted giving the title to her rival, Irina Slutskaya! It was the 2000 NHK Trophy;! Even Peter Carruthers was sure she would win, but the scores were pitifully low crushing her spirit! Hard to feel sorry for her when she also has taken medals not earned; 2000 Trophée Lalique should have gone Jennie Kirk! It all seems to balance out!

 

[Karpenko]

Meh, I want to hear more about chocolate-covered almonds.

The other day I did QUITE enjoy a Theo bar: dark chocolate with coconut. mmmmmmmmm.

And it sounds magnificent dark chocolate really does make everything better, plus you can toss out the guilt because it's 'healthy' chocolate (guilt? riiiight. Bring on that chocolate I'll skip a meal and go for a run if I have to)

I still have to go to Trader Joe's, I'll probably get some veggies too for a good salad (so it balances out the chocolate almonds with salt).

 

[IceAlisa]

On a pure performance level, though, Cohen grabbed me by the throat. I've never seen anyone else like her.

She did it Somerset Maugham style:

You have to grab the audience by the throat and say "Now, you buggers, you pay attention to me!"

 

[danibellerika]

Sasha is the #1 reason why I grew to love skating as much as I did/do. I saw her on TV one day in 2001 practicing a quad and I was in awe. And then I saw her actual programs and her great performance quality and I became an instant fan. I think Michelle had better skating skills and was a far better competitor, but I preferred watching Sasha when it came to the actual vision she put out on the ice. She was a better spinner, had better flexibility, and when she hit her jumps I preferred watching them (Dick commented in 2002 for her Nat's SP during the stromotion how she'd point her toes even mid jump). Everything was just lovely. I still miss her dearly and the attention to detail that she put into every movement. I'm forever ruined and spoiled when it comes to my expectations.

 

[Fiero425]

Sasha is the #1 reason why I grew to love skating as much as I did/do. I saw her on TV one day in 2001 practicing a quad and I was in awe. And then I saw her actual programs and her great performance quality and I became an instant fan. I think Michelle had better skating skills and was a far better competitor, but I preferred watching Sasha when it came to the actual vision she put out on the ice. She was a better spinner, had better flexibility, and when she hit her jumps I preferred watching them (Dick commented in 2002 for her Nat's SP during the stromotion how she'd point her toes even mid jump). Everything was just lovely. I still miss her dearly and the attention to detail that she put into every movement. I'm forever ruined and spoiled when it comes to my expectations.

I've written in detail how much I think Cohen's career would have been different if Kwan had retired in a timely fashion! Her hanging on like an old vulture stifled many of the ladies IMO! We had quite a few that were great talents and had wonderful potential like Naomi Nari Nam! I could watch Nam and Cohen all day long; the grace, and as you said "attention to detail" were always evident in their skating! But to beat the Queen, you have to push yourself and their little bodies couldn't take it; esp. Naomi's! The same thing is going on in tennis with Roger Federer and Raphael Nadal extending their careers longer than expected! It changes the whole dynamics of the tour by them even walking around with other players in awe of them breathing air! No matter how good you are, if your mindset and confidence aren't there, you'll still fail!

 

[VGThuy]

So creative.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Also, about the "Michelle was the better jumper." If Michelle could do all these triple-triple combinations in practice, why did she only - barely - manage a 3T+3T in competition? Sasha even managed a 3Lz+3T (albeit a flutz, which Michelle borderline had also, by the way)...

 

[Fiero425]

Also, about the "Michelle was the better jumper." If Michelle could do all these triple-triple combinations in practice, why did she only - barely - manage a 3T+3T in competition? Sasha even managed a 3Lz+3T (albeit a flutz, which Michelle borderline had also, by the way)...

I always thought Kwan was terribly overrated by assuming her success meant she had to be a great jumper! You can count the occasions on 1 hand when she went outside her comfort zone! During her convalescent period waiting for a leg fracture to heal during the '97-98 season, she avoided that simple 3T/3T combo in deference to an added 3 Lp w/ a step out 2T! I still SMH over the awe people had in MK skating when there were so many more daring and charismatic skaters out there! My favorite was Surya Bonaly, followed by Irina Slutskaya who beat Michelle like a drum those last several years! I didn't think anyone could outdo the balletic style of Oksana Baiul until Sasha Cohen came along! When she was maybe 14, she was added to one of those exhibition/comp. held here in the States! She was supposedly injured so she was limited to 3 T & 3 S, but she didn't need the jumps! Her stroking around the ice was reminiscent of Peggy Fleming in those waning years trying to utilize the old lady to the last! PF was limited to a single axel by then, but true skaters don't need to leave the ice! Sasha Cohen's a lot like that; her "falling leaf," splits jumps that seem to go higher than most since she's just a little pixie, and then those spins that Michelle can only DREAM of performing! I miss her!

 

[bardtoob]

And Medvedeva ruined Radionova's career ... Because she would have been the best if there was no competition.

IIRC Sarah Hughes was not in control of her own destiny at the 2002 Olympics, but still beat Cohen, Kwan, and Slutskaya. What a pathetic showing from the three leaders after the SP.

IIRC Irina is older than Kwan, won her first Euros the same year Kwan won her first US Nationals, and nobody was saying Irina was an old vulture that had already botched two Olympics and should have retired ... And I know because I think I said everything negative about Irina I could think of back then because I had yet learned to appreciate her power. Of course, I was a little smug when Irina got her @55 handed to her by Asada at the GPF right before the 2006 Olympics that Asada was too young to attend.

IIRC the podium at 2006 Worlds was Meissner, Suguri, and Cohen. Of course, even Suguri was known to pull off a flutzed 3Lz-3T.

IIRC not being able to beat somebody with a progressively deteriorating hip injury year after year is not the fault of the person with the deteriorating hip injury. In nature the healthy would have overtaken and dominated the lame with authority, not depending on the social order to hand over the title.

IIRC I only heard Peggy Fleming ever say, "Why does she do this to herself?" about one skater, and Peggy favored skaters like herself and who could be more like her than a student of one of her former coaches.

 

[watchthis!!]

Tonight we're going to conversate like it's 1999... (Give or take a couple of years.)

What's next, comparing Yuna Kim's jumping to Hanyu's?

I DARE you to start that thread!!!

 

[sadya]

There aren't that many skaters who I like watching equally as much during competitions and during exhibitions. Quite often I like the competitive programs, but not the exhibitions or the other way around. Kwan and Cohen both belong to the kind of skaters whose programs I enjoyed, no matter what the occasion.

 

[antmanb]

Also, about the "Michelle was the better jumper." If Michelle could do all these triple-triple combinations in practice, why did she only - barely - manage a 3T+3T in competition? Sasha even managed a 3Lz+3T (albeit a flutz, which Michelle borderline had also, by the way)...

When did she land this in competition? I remember her falling on an under-rotated 3Lz+3T in Salt Lake City, but don't recall her landing one clean in competition?

 

[Clay]

When did she land this in competition? I remember her falling on an under-rotated 3Lz+3T in Salt Lake City, but don't recall her landing one clean in competition?

2003 Worlds long program
https://youtu.be/dZQPywIi1gw?t=25s

The best part was the commentator's laugh

 

[Fiero425]

When did she land this in competition? I remember her falling on an under-rotated 3Lz+3T in Salt Lake City, but don't recall her landing one clean in competition?

I never missed a performance and probably have it stored on VHS tape somewhere in storage, but Sasha did complete that combo at least once! Even Michelle went outside her comfort zone a little with a 3Lutz/2Lp combo, maybe attempted 3 Lp and squeaked it out! She was trying to overcome the genuine affection the judges and fans had for Irina Slutskaya who had gone through so much in life! She survived horrible conditions in Russia over her career, saving to pay for operation on her mom, and barely recovered herself from that heart ailment with fluid on her heart! MK's been stroked since birth and is probably a DIVA; runs the whole show!

 

[MAXSwagg]

When did she land this in competition? I remember her falling on an under-rotated 3Lz+3T in Salt Lake City, but don't recall her landing one clean in competition?

Yes, 2003 Worlds, as Clay said. Danibellerika was also there, and she did that combination right in front of her (lucky her).

 

[bardtoob]

2003 Worlds long program
https://youtu.be/dZQPywIi1gw?t=25s

The best part was the commentator's laugh

and Sasha's program was so lovely too . . . It made me watch her GPF performance of the same program. For all her flaws, she was gorgeous. She could have been World Champion this year.

 

[bardtoob]

Here is Sasha's best long program performance:

https://youtu.be/bo3hgBV59bc

The forward scratch spin at the end is the cherry on top