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Who has the best chance of beating Medvedeva to win Worlds in 2017

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Jan 22, 2017.

Who has the best chance of beating Medvedeva to win worlds in 2017?

Poll closed Apr 22, 2017.
  1. Ashley Wagner

    9 vote(s)
    4.6%
  2. Karen Chen

    4 vote(s)
    2.1%
  3. Carolina Kostner

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  4. Satoko Miyahara

    18 vote(s)
    9.2%
  5. Kaetlyn Osmond

    66 vote(s)
    33.8%
  6. Anna Pogorilaya

    81 vote(s)
    41.5%
  7. #3 US lady on World team

    1 vote(s)
    0.5%
  8. Other

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    I don´t know, Mao never got benefit of JSF.
     
  2. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    ITA. If Satoko were any country but Japanese she would get hit for < and other issues on her jumps. Instead she gets huge GOE and almost never gets an underrotation call, LOL! I laugh at people saying she was robbed of beating Wagner at worlds when Wagner got 2 underrotation calls in her long program, while Satoko's jumps looked more underrotated and she got none. And she still couldnt beat Wagner even with this BS aspect of the scoring.

    And I dont really like Satoko's skating besides her jumps and general smallness of her skating. For instance I wish Medvedeva had programs more like Satoko's and it would be make her dominance a bit more bearable.

    Mao was rarely clear Japanese #1 for any extended period. 2007-2011 she had to share with Miki, and 2012-2014 with Suzuki. Satoko is clear Japanese #1 with no challengers to that status and that includes an old past her prime Mao, so the JSF can focus their full support on her. They also can avoid the men altogether since Hanyu is now so out of reach of anyone if he skates well he doesnt even need the help, Uno is best in an up coming role until 2018, and their top pair went bust, so all their political help is reserved for Satoko alone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  3. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

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    Many in JSF (especially Yamada/Nagoya group) are trying to push Shoma, what with manipulated photos in newspapers and other media to make his jumps look bigger, for example. Frankly, I think this faction within JSF hate that they can't really control Yuzuru, as his ONE and ONLY sponsor is the powerful ANA. Because of this, JSF is afraid to play the games with him as they did and do with Mao and others. He doesn't need JSF, but JSF needs him.

    Mao never got the benefit of the doubt and now JSF allowed Shin Amano to get away with his many egregious calls that overwhelmingly were directed at ladies from his own country (for whatever reason) is beyond me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  4. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    Interesting. Does this have something to do with the group Mao herself was sponsored by? And is Satoko, like Uno, by the sponsors that are most popular with the JSF. Sounds like a ton of internal politics there I didnt know about in such specific detail, but it would explain strange things like the Japanese callers who go international even lowballing Mao for years.

    I love that they cant control Hanyu and they know it.
     
    gotoschool likes this.
  5. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

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    Satoko and Shoma have no other sponsors. JSF IS their sponsor.
     
    slipchuk likes this.
  6. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    Mao never skated clean back to back continuously like Satoko. And yes, Mao had to share slot with Miki and Akiko.
    JSF can push Satoko to many medals despite her poor jumps, it's all thanks to her consistency. They even robbed Anna of a silver at GPF cause Anna is just Russian No.2. Their full support is on Satoko.
     
    Li'Kitsu and slipchuk like this.
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Satoko has tiny jumps, hardly rotated, but her technique is good, Mao never had a good jumping technique, on any jump...
    So I won't say Satoko has poor jumps, and I won't compare Mao and Satoko's situations from that angle. ;)
     
  8. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    :huh: The biggest issue with Mao is that she was not taught to cheat the take-off like Satoko. Even Mao's UR jumps might have more airtime than Satoko. :rolleyes: http://imgur.com/aT1v5yu
     
    Li'Kitsu and MAXSwagg like this.
  9. morqet

    morqet rising like a phoenix

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    3,083
    Anna had a knee injury at nationals and skated very conservatively with some problems on her jumps - not major errors, but some shaky landings and questionable rotations that meant she got -GOE on 4 jumping passes across the 2 programs. Maria got the benefit of skating while representing CSKA, and miraculously the underrotations that every international panel sees in her skating were nowhere to be found in Chelyabinsk. International panels never have them that close in PCS either.
     
  10. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    I saw the performances of all of Evgenia, Alina, Maria, Anna, and Elena from Russian Nationals on youtube and something fishy was up in the scoring of Alina and Maria for me. Some politics in their favorite to inflate them for some reason more than others. One sign I look for in any country Nationals is who gets Nationals inflation vs international scoring and who doesnt. Elena Radionova used to get it, but got none this year, which tells me she is now out of favor. Anna gets none most years, and again this year, which means she has never been super in favor and will always have to work for whatever she gets. Maria and Alina got a ton, which means Russian fed. is high on both. Evgenia got some both last year and this but you know the sports dominant skater will be a favorite of their fed anyway.

    Anna had better medal at worlds, preferably silver or gold and not another bronze, if she wants to make the Russian Olympic team next year. Both Alina and Polina will be eligible next year which is a scary situation for her, particularly when Russian fed. seems to boost Maria too. Speaking of beating Miyahara at worlds or not, well in Anna's case, she had probably better if she wants to become an Olympian in 2018.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
    bumblebeevich likes this.
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL so that's right ! Satoko's jumps look better than Mao. Mao clearly has jumping technique issue. Not only that her edges are not clean, but the overall jumping technique is not textbook, that was my point. I have the feeling that Satoko learnt a good technique, but she does what she can with her physical abilities. Well, obviously, the close up you posted doesn't do her any favor. ;)
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I'm a big Satoko fan, but that prerotation in that clip provided was really egregious. I wonder if she'd had the same issue if she was allowed to be a clockwise skater, the way she was meant to be.
     
  13. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    No one with good technique cheated takeoff like Satoko.
    Yuna: http://m.imgur.com/nOtzne5
    Liza: http://m.imgur.com/x9ztCbi

    Mao doesn't pre-rotate as much as Satoko as well. Too bad no one taught her to cheat takeoff. She might have gotten less UR calls.

    The type of heavy Pre-rotation that Satoko is doing is another kind of very bad technique that doesn't get punished as it should be. And even if you don't take pre-rotation into account, Satoko still UR very often. At GPF Satoko UR obviously but didn't get called.
     
    Li'Kitsu and slipchuk like this.
  14. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

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    LOL Mao's UR jumps do have more airtime than Satoko. Lol Well, anybody's do, really...
     
  15. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

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    Satoko and Shoma (as well as some other select skaters) have so much pre-rotation that their jumps should be called 3.25. Shoma's "4F" is actually more like a 3.5F or 3.25F on some occasions.
     
  16. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    I think the appropriate term would be rotation, not airtime, but even then it would still come the same way.

    Do you agree with me that Satoko is a strange case in that she is scored too low on PCS, yet too high on TES.
     
  17. gotoschool

    gotoschool Well-Known Member

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    More Mao criticisms. Now, she is "old and past her prime" (I wish all old women were as glamorous with such fabulous artistry, steps and skating skills as Mao) and in another comment she is accused of "never having good jumping technique on any jump." I'm sure my friends who thought Mao had the most beautiful jumps in the Sochi LP or in the Japan Open 2015 would totally disagree with that one. The fact that she has landed the most triple axels alone refutes this. Besides jumps and the bias and preference given to some by the tech crew and in GOE, there is also skating, steps, spins and artistic expression in which Mao is certainly in her prime and even injured she is finally getting the trlple lutz, though these highly aesthetic elements which occupy so much of a performance seem to count for very little for Mao under the system. I also don't understand why any skater should be given undisputed preference which is implied in the comment while Mao or any other unfavored skater is held down which as is also implied, especially after all the gold medals Mao has won and money she still brings to the JSF, because the stinginess often happens even when she skates relatively clean. Fair (or preferred) scoring is a small thing to ask in return. It sounds like a euphemism for scoring manipulation which doesn't accurately access what actually happens on the ice.

    Yes, Mao was injured this season with chronic knee pain and probably shouldn't have been jumping a lot and tried to recuperate instead and I do believe the lack of training time and lack of run thoughs hurt her endurance and rattled her nerves a bit and caused a number of costly mistakes. I remember seeing her practice live at Finlandia Trophy and seeing her grimace some in pain and stop jumping after 3 jumping passes in her long program run through and I also know that she refrained from doing the Biellmann and half Biellmann in practice because she had been experiencing back pain, but her skating, artistic expression and step sequences which are about 80-90 percent of the performance time were mesmerizing in a way no other skater could compare to in my opinion. From watching her practice I got a profound sense of aesthetic bliss I didn't want to end. Coach Sato has been criticized for letting Mao skate this season, but from articles I have translated in google from Japanese as early as last season at the NHK it seems that it was her decision to skate through the pain that appears as if it began at the Cup of China combined with several illnesses including an apparent illness at Skate America. Mao also changed skates two times this season. I sense that Mao decided to comeback and she wanted to see it through to the end. But despite some criticisms, Mao's performances are still full of praise, a great rain of boquets at Nationals, a great number of views on youtube that are out of all proportion to the scores and most other skaters that scored much higher in the same competitions. I can only guess that Mao must also get the same sense of satisfaction these people do when watching her skate, despite the mistakes, but I know she also must want to reach or come close to her ideal, like I thought she did with her 2016 Worlds LP, which is one of my favorite performances.

    I actually agree with the comment that Mao should learn to pre-rotate more if she wants to play the ISU tech game, though it has nothing to do with increasing actual rotation (it may actually decrease) and to me it decreases the aesthetic quality of a jump, but Mao may not get a lot of benefit since she is a special target for the tech crew, though I hope I am wrong. Harsh tech calls have a habit of being transferred to deflated GOE and PCS (which never gets that high considering Mao's extraordinary skills). I hope the the stinginess can change into wealth in scoring next season. I also hope Mao heals and gives more highly memorable performances that bring joy and great sense of beauty to those who watch, and that the IOC doesn't stoop to taking her most watched videos down again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
    npavel likes this.
  18. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

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    I think Satoko's PCS are fair, it's just that Medvedeva and Wagner and others are [way] too high. And yes, all of Satoko's jumps should not earn more than +1 (and that is only a few). Judges need to stop rewarding poor jump technique (e.g. Shoma, Satoko). and distinguish "average" (e.g. Nathan, Medvedeva) and "exceptional" (e.g. Hanyu, Chan, Osmond, Tuktamysheva). technique more appropriately.

    I've read that some people think Satoko can do a quad or 3A. Are you fcking kidding me?? Lol And Medvedeva could maybe do a 4S just because she is able to whip upper body around fast enough to rotate (i.e. she doesn't really jump with her legs, but with her upper body and arms, technique that is typical of most of the Russian girls with the exception of Turskaya and Tuktamysheva).

    Mao may UR but in MANY of those cases, the jump is still aesthetically pleasing (flow, effortlessness, reasonable height and distance, impeccable posture).
     
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    A jump can be aesthetically pleasing with not a textbook technique. I hope nobody will ever say Mao's skating is not pleasing to watch. But to deny that she has not a good jumping technique is very strange... No offense, the quantity of 3Axels or 3/3 doesn't mean it's a good technique. She does the jumps, and she does them well aesthetically, but not textbook. ;)
     
  20. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    I am one of those who are not impressed with Mao's jumps but to call all of her jumps as bad technique is not ok.

    Mao has very good Axel technique among ladies, or else she couldn't do 3A. She has a skid into 3A but many men have it too. Frankly Mao is still the woman who lands the most 3A, given her longevity. I don't think it is right to call her 3A as bad technique. How many women have landed 3A consistently over the years? We can't compare women to men. Even Liza doesn't have 3A anymore.

    Mao's Loop is good. Her Flip is acceptable. I think it is better to say that Mao has good technique in some jumps and quite bad technique in others. Mao's biggest issue is having no 3lz and no 3-3 and the 3T in combo is pretty weak. One more thing, Mao doesn't have true 3-3 but frankly many girls don't have it too.

    Satoko definitely doesn't have true 3-3. She has been saved by tech panel due to JSF putting all their eggs on her. Satoko doesn't even have true tripe toe jumps if we take into account that she pre-rotates almost one whole rotation on ice. It's a joke to call Satoko has good technique. She doesn't. Her TES depends on tech panel and JSF's investment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    douglasottawa, Li'Kitsu and slipchuk like this.
  21. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    Satoko's edge jumps are alright, even if still small. I agree her toe jumps have all kinds of problems, and are largely ignored. I think kwanatic is right it is since the judges just feel the rest of her skating is so superb, they want her up to that, and if it means scoring her too easily on her jumps so be it. She atleast lands all her jumps, unlike many of her competitors, usually on one foot, making it easier to overmark them and even ignore possible UR calls as they see fit. New system might as well still be 6.0, judges will find any way to get the result they want or think is right in the end
     
  22. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention Mao has and is still going for an extraordinarily difficult 3F+3Lo, even when the technical panel makes completely bogus calls on it half the time and it does not get the credit in the base value it deserves (a damn 3Lz+3T is with essentially the same, of course a 3Lz+3T is still worth more than a 3A+2T which is outrageous).
     
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

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    Just noticed my typo. It's Morozov (not Morizov). I hate typos and it's too late to edit the post.