1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi all! No longer will threads be closed after 1000 (ish) messages. We may close if one gets so long to cause an issue and if you would like a thread closed to start a new one after a 1000 posts then just use the "Report Post" function. Enjoy!

Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
  2. Michelle Kwan

    52 vote(s)
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
  1. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Say what you want, but 1996 Worlds, 1998 Olympics, and 2001 Worlds provided some of the best top two ladies performances in terms of technical difficulty and in the case of 1996 and even 1998, technical difficulty plus artistic merit.

    Other than those years, In 1997, Tara wins with 7 triples including a 3Loop/3Loop and a double axel/half loop/Triple Sal. Kwan won the LP with 6 triples, a 3/3, and great choreography.

    The World Champion in 1999 landed 7 triple jumps with a 3/3 sequence and the silver medalist landed 6 with some messy landings.

    2000, high level in the SP and in the LP, Kwan won with 7 triples and a 3/3 with Slute following with 6, and two inspired performances by Bute and Gusmeroli.

    2001, high level of skating with Kwan 7 triples and a 3/3, Slute having an ambitious routine with an attempt at a 3/3/2 and another 3/3, Bute 6 triples with a 3/3 sequence, and Hughes 7 triples with a 3/3.

    SLC was somewhat disappointing, but Kwan is considered a choke when she still landed 5 triple jumps (whereas some one like Yamaguchi won her gold with that many triples and a hand-down on the Salchow and let's not talk about Baiul and Witt). 2002 Worlds, Kwan and Slute both performed 6 triples and I believe Fumie had a solid performance. Yes, some of the skaters on the list are highly preferable to Hughes and Suguri and even Bute, but they were capable of a lot of triple jumps and had to compete with the Kwan package and the Irina speed and power. Not easy at all.

    2003 weaker, but not bad if the silver medalist did 7 triples and 2 3/3 even if the rest of her skating wasn't too great.

    2004, Arakawa 2 3/3s and 7 triples altogether. People make fun of Cohen's consistency, but I believe she tended to land at least 5 triples.

    In Kwan's era, you needed all five triples and consistently land at least 6 to beat her in the LP and that had better come after a clean SP and QR (at Worlds). That's not something I'd call a weak era. People say Bute and Suguri and Hughes would have been laughed at in other eras, but I don't see how they're so much worse than Jill Trenary, Oksana Baiul, Surya Bonaly, inconsistent Yuka Sato, Dagmar Lurz, Tiffany Chin, Kira Ivanova, Annette Poestch, Linda Fratianne, Rosalynn Sumners, etc.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  2. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    It's important to note that Kristi Yamaguchi did a 3Lz-3T.
  3. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Active Member

    I voted for Slutskaya since while I dont agree with those who say the Kwan-Slutskaya era was that weak, not the stongest, but not the worst of this list either, how can Kwan have so many votes and Slutskaya almost none. Werent the two skating at the identical times, heck they even won their first World medal the same year, and Irina lasted even a bit longer than Michelle but essentialy their careers were the exact same time. So if Kwan's era is deemed as weak competition why wouldnt Irina's also be yet Irina has almost no votes and Kwan so many. That doesnt make sense to me, since whatever is strong for one or weak for one as far as the field goes, must be for the other too.

    It also makes me mad to see all the nasty comments about the wonderful Butyrskaya on this thread.
  4. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

    I finally had the chance to see some tapes of Poetzsch skate and wow does he suck. Her skate at the 79 Worlds that won silver was a joke, she missed every jumps the first 2 minutes and skated to horrible music and didnt relate to it any.
  5. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

    This is such an absurd statement. Plushenko of 2006 is probably the best overall performance from the two Olympics combined. However, saying Buttle is equivalent to Takahashi is ridiculous. Buttle tanked his SP and made multiple mistakes in the LP. Takahashi skated a clean, sharp SP and long where he landed everything except for the quad. He did get dinged for two URs, but his performances were easily better than Buttle's in both portions. He was also better than 2006 Lambiel, who didn't skate a clean SP, made a couple mistakes in the FP, and was sloppy overall.

    The fact that Weir skated two perfect programs in 2010, but finished lower than in 2006 when he skated poorly in the LP shows how much stronger 2010 is. Remember most of the top ten SPs were clean in 2010, while 2006 only 2 SPs were clean (I don't know if Chiper was clean, but that makes only 3 clean SPs if he was). 2006 was just a lousy, pathetic competition in all disciplines.
  6. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Baiul's field in 1994 was pretty weak.
  7. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    Sorry, but this thread is totally :rolleyes: for me.

    Kwan? Are you serious? She skated against some of the best, most exciting, and consistent skaters in recent memory. I know IJS has made people so picky to the point that I don't think they can even REALLY enjoy skating anymore (other than so-called 'perfect' technique by a skater who bores me to tears), but come on!

    Ok, here I go:

    I, for one, can acknowledge a flutz or a lip, but people are now trying act like past MANY past wins are unjustified, based on this new CRAP system that has driven many fans (and forum posters...) away from the sport.

    Not everything has to be qualified. Some things can just be appreciated for their beauty, excitement, etc.. This skating system is similar to the major problem of state testing in public schools. All the creativity is gone. Teach to the test-- choreograph to the levels. Blech.

    I am so sad that I can no longer escape the realism of school (I am a teacher) to my favorite sport of art and athleticism that has now become a total points contest, with a PCS system that seems predetermined. It's so sad to me that Yu-na Kim could skate a clean SP (with way inflated scores), but then literally fall on every jump in the LP and still probably win a medal... Patrick Chan, ditto.

    The old system had its issues, but at least it was a transparent enough system that the ridiculous 'lovefest' judging was OBVIOUS to almost everyone. This thing hides lovefest judging by qualifying everything. I think basics are very important, but not so important that they should be the reason a skater wins a medal over a cleaner skate with slightly lesser basics. Sorry, just my opinion.


    :Steps down off of soapbox.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  8. karlon

    karlon New Member

    although kim have been weaker on FS than SP, She usually have been had better FS than her competitiors in international competitions. (except 06-07/07-08 season when she was injuired)
    Everytime, When she get major titles, she had close to clean FS as well as SP. why did you mentioned 'yuna kim' as an example, though that was never happened, with use word "probably"? just to bash her? lol

    and it would be intereting fact to you, she has never won by PCS
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
    l'etoile and (deleted member) like this.
  9. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    No, not just to bash her, but to bash how she is judged. :)
  10. karlon

    karlon New Member

    please answer to my question in detail
    why did you mentioned her as an example, although that was never happened, with use word, "probably"?
    when she got medaled unfairly with skate perfect SP, and more than 3 falls in FS, and saved by Huge PCS, like Chan?
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  11. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

    How in the world her score in SP like for example in this year's Worlds inflated? She had only 3 points lead against Kostner who fell in her jump. She had to skate a clean FS just to even justify the win. They already changed some rules after 2010 Olympics. Getting rid of 3 double axels, introducing 3A in SP, etc.
  12. karlon

    karlon New Member

    You're right
    ..kim had clean SP; 3lz+3t / 3f / 2a. and Caro did 3t+3t(fell) / 3R / 2a.. her score was not over 70, PCS was lower than caro who fell once..
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    I would say 'None of the above', had that been an option. I think at the time they skated, they had to compete against some tough skaters. Since the sport has grown, we cannot compare the level of competition in the two eras.

    On another note, I was amused by the number of misspellings of skaters' names in the poll, even simple ones: like Sumner was spelled Summer and Trixie Schuba as Trixi Schubert. I admit that I am not perfect, however. I have difficulty with Annette P.'s (I still forget how to spell it correctly, and am usually too lazy to look it up)
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    The Poetzsch era is way underrated on this poll. She should be leading the poll for sure, and she is about to slip into 3rd place. I mean Poetzsch herself sort of sucked, and she dominated, so what does that tell you. I would give her a pass if she was this amazing figures specialist like Trixi Schuba and Peggy Fleming (with Peggy being an absolutely fab free skater too) but she clearly wasnt. One just has to look at the marks she attained in figures compared to those others, and while she was obviously great at them and the best of her era which is the only thing her wins came from, she was no out of the world figures great like those others were either.
  15. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Michelle Kwan was the first lady who popped into my head but I thought her fans (even though I'm a fan) would get pissy. Now I see others feel the same way. She had really weak competition until Tara for 1.5 years (except for Lu Chen's glorious 96 worlds skate that should have won) and then extremely weak competition until Slute's comeback in 2000. There was one competition (Skate Canada?) where I think she only landed 4 triples and still won because the nearest competitor only landed 1. That summed up her competition for those 3 years.
  16. HVS

    HVS Active Member

    What a nonsense it is, your words just make me laugh so hard :lol: So, what can you say about this year Worlds? ;) Can you give us some proofs to prove your laughable opinion? :rolleyes:

    Okay, it's make sense here, thank you :cool:
  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Of course, one competition sums up 10 years of competition at the highest level ! lol
  18. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Oksana's main rival was Nancy Kerrigan how on earth is Michelle Kwan ahead of her? LOL.

    Michelle's main rivals (Tara, Irina, Sarah, Maria, Sasha) were either all world champions or Olympic Gold Medalists (with the exception of Sasha).

    Oksana did not compete against any Olympic Gold Medalists or World Champions...or if she did I cannot think of anyone...
  19. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

    Katarina Witt :p
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Michelle Kwan seems to inspire the two extremes on this forum. She also won the toughest competition ever poll which was also a joke. She certainly didnt have either the weakest or toughest competition of any lady, something in between. Yet she wins both the toughest and weakest competition polls on this forum somehow. :lol:

    I agree Baiul had weak competition in a sense, but still the 93 Worlds was superbly skated, and the 94 Olympics had alot of contenders. Basically though there were alot of very strong skaters, like 5 or 6 at once, but not one standout great skater (although Baiul was hyped as that at the time). The Kwan often often had poor depth but 1 really strong opponent at a time, so I am not sure entirely how to compare them. Poetzsch by far is weaker than both though, and Hamill and Fleming I would rate 2nd and 3rd as having the poorest competition though. I suspect they dont have many votes since people just dont remember those eras much but Hamill's main competition was Errath and DeLeeuw. Fleming only faced a pre prime Seyfert and Noyes.

    I find it amazing Kim had any votes, let alone sitting 6th on this poll. She probably had the toughest competition of any women ever.

    Also interesting Yamaguchi doesnt have a single vote yet. She wouldnt be my choice, but I am kind of amazed after 150 votes she would be the only one with none. These were her major amateur titles:

    1991 Worlds- none of her main competitors- Ito, Harding, Yamaguchi, landed more than 4 triples that night, although Harding had a triple axel.
    1992 Olympics- splatfest. With Harding and Ito placing 6th and 4th in the short, and Kerrigan never landing more than 4 triples in the long back then, she was guaranteed gold before the long even began.
    1992 Worlds- total crapfest, one of the worst events ever. For the flak Baiul gets for weak competition the overall standard of the 93 Worlds and even 94 Olympics was MUCH higher than the 92 Worlds or even 92 Olympics probably.
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I would agree Kwan's competition from 96-99/2000 was quite weak actually. However her competition became alot stronger from 2000 onwards. 2002 was a deep ladies field going in, and another league altogether from 1998 when Kwan and Lipisnki had about a 5 fall cushion over the rest, LOL! Had Kwan retired in 1999 though I probably would have picked her on this poll too.
  22. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    At various competitions, she competed against Chen Lu, Yuka Sato, Katarina Witt, Michelle Kwan, and Maria Butyrskaya.
  23. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Yamaguchi though had the potential of being beaten any time either Ito or Harding stepped on the ice. Of course Kristi used her consistency (and perceived better artistry) to her advantage to beat them. Also women were just starting to do 6 or 7 triple LPs around then and Ito and Harding were just too inconsistent even after figures ended. That being said you are right about 92 worlds in retrospect. It was a huge disaster with the exception of Yamaguchi and a very young Lu Chen.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    It is clear in retrospect Ito was past her amateur prime slightly by 91-92 but she could not cope with a slew of bad luck (91 Worlds) and a horde of media pressure (92 Olympics). Harding was great and tough competition for Kristi in 91 (including the 91 fall early 91-92 season), but after that pffttt. Anyway Kristi didnt even have a long time as an amateur at or near the top due to figures and her early retirement, so it is hard to evaluate her "competition" too much one way or the other. She certainly had potential to have strong competition, but not sure it often materialized. The 92 Olympic ladies event could have been the greatest ever if Kristi, Tonya, and Midori had all skated even reasonably well (even if all or none wasnt perfect) but arguably none of them did (not even Kristi who easily won with one of her worst LPs ever probably).

    As I said though I wouldnt have voted for her. Like Kwan I see her somewhat mid pack as far as toughest competition goes, not near the top, not near the bottom. Just found it funny she would end up the only one with no votes this far in.
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't put too much stock in it. I'm not sure about the other poll, but this poll has had only 148 voters out of a forum of many more and less than 30% (43 posters) voted for her. It's not a majority, nor is it much of a plurality. In my totally biased opinion, the rationale of why she had the weakest competition is weaker than Poetzch era.
  26. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    I don't even think Tara should count as good competition for Michelle or anyone else. She should have remained in the juniors another two years at least until 1998. What I mean is her performances in 1996 and 1997 would have been considered athletically limited and unsophisticated in prior and later years. Her jumps were so tiny and her skating so child like-- albeit precocious, charming and rife with energy--that it reflects poorly on the state of the rest of Michelle's competition. That they elevated a 14 year old going on 6 so quickly to rival status shows there was a vacuum. There was no one else, and Tara was a pro at capitalizing on her strengths. Thanks partly to Sandra Bezic, Lipinski willed herself to be accepted by judges who may have been looking for a rival--any rival-- for Kwan. I do think in 1997, 1998, and 1999, Kwan had limited competition. She had Slutskaya in 2000, 2001 and 2002, and she at least had Sasha in 2003. So the second part of her career was more contested.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  27. miki88

    miki88 Active Member

    I actually enjoyed Tara's skating more than Irina's. It was indeed juniorish but it was lively and fun. I think Tara and Irina had some of the best competitive mindsets and were really good at capitalizing their strengths. These were two qualities that made them tough rivals to Michelle, especially under 6.0, when consistency was the key to winning. I think Kristi and Yuna had rivals who were overall better skaters and had more potential but Tara and Irina were better competitors.
  28. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    I never said anything about 10 years. :rolleyes:
  29. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Yes, that is exactly what I said. From 2000 on, it was a different ballgame.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I agree with all you said, and Tara rising to the top in 1997 did show the huge vaccum at the time. She wasnt popular at all with skating experts, fans, not even judges (most of her scores were very low for a winner), but she rose to the top almost by default.