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What would top 10 at 2006 Olympics ladies event been if all had been there and clean

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by gordanlevitt, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    I'm surprised so many people have Yuna ranked so high. Remember that at this point, Mao was far superior than Yuna on almost all aspects. Yuna, I believe, barely eeked out a 50 in PCS in the LP at Junior Worlds and Yuna had stamina issues at this point in her career. If everyone skated to their potential, she would probably be 9th/10th on this list.
  2. torren

    torren New Member

    exactly! At that time, judges had seen her very low;even much lower than Suguri. Even if TES was highest her score would not be able to belong to 1-5
  3. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

    There are too many variables to guess with total certainty the exact positions for me. First off clean can have a broad definition, what were the skaters even planning, on many of them I dont even know. There are alot of skaters amongst this generation who could do the 3-3s but often did not even attempt them, like Arakawa and Slutskaya especialy, so guessing what their clean would have been is hard to define. It is not like Kim when you KNOW she will attempt the 3-3s everytime, and Asada who you know will attempt the 3axel each time. Arakawa and Slutskaya skating cleanly with 3-3s would be certain to go 1-2, as their PCS would kill Asada and their TES would badly beat Sasha. With no 3-3s it would be close between them and a clean Asada (with her 3axels and 3-3s) and Cohen (low GOEs on jumps, but 7 triples, a triple-triple combination/sequence, and strong non jumps, and high PCS).

    I will just put them into groups:

    1-4: Slutskaya, Arakawa, Cohen, Asada. I dont know the exact order but these would have been the top 4 in one order or another for sure. That is if they all skated cleanly, even if everyone else did.

    5-6: Kostner, Kim. These would have been the next 2 finishers in whatever order.

    7-11: Kwan, Suguri, Sokolova, Meissner, Rochette. Then these would have rounded out the top 11 or 12 skaters in one order or another, if they skated cleanly.
  4. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    I don't think Cohen had to wait her turn in 06. She had essentially done that in SLC where she was fourth. She had been right up there with Slutkskaya, Kwan, Suguri, Arakawa in the 03-06 quad. By 2010 she was well past her prime.
  5. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Swap Kwan with Kim and I agree w/ you. On second thought, I would have 4-6: Kwan, Kostner and Asada. I still feel Asada at an Olympic competition (as opposed to a GP event or even a Senior Worlds) would've been held down in PCS or even GOE. Her skating in '05 was overall still quite juniorish.

    Besides Kwan, another hi-profile skater who missed Torino was Volchkova, who was forcibly retired after '06 Euros due to injury. She was on the comeback trail and I wonder if she would've cracked the top 10 if she had been healthy ...
  6. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    I am guessing that people who did not like the actual results are the majority participating in this hypothetical. I would be more realistic and try not to credit people for elements they rarely or never did cleanly or beautifully in practice. Slutskaya was looking ragged and sloppy in practice on certain elements even when she hit them, just like she was in the actual competition. In my opinion, good hypothetical judging should factor this in as inevitable. Arakawa might have gotten under-rotations had she done her full repertoire. I think some posters are being unrealistic to suppose otherwise. How much credence I would give these theories would depend on what observers saw in the practices at the Olympics and the competitions going into the Olympics.

    The only thing I feel confident about is that a clean Asada a la GPF would score highly and in the medals.
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  7. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Banned Member

    Well most of us never got to see the practices. However by early 2006 it was already evident Irina was no longer the same skater as fall 2004, winter 2005, or even fall 2005 anymore.
  8. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

    I know--all the times she tried. She could just never get the hang of it!
  9. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kwan's 2006 program supposed to contain 6 triples: two 3Lz, two 3F, one 3S and one 3T?

    I thought I had read reports from the selection committee (or maybe just fake posts) that those were her planned elements.

    I'm not sure she'd be able to hit level 4 on her layback (no Biellman) or footwork (rare at the time) but certainly the spiral sequence and combination spin were within her reach.

    Remember, back in 2006 there were 4 spins and a spiral sequence, so programs were chock full. I'm just not sure Michelle would've been able to hit the highest levels on them unlike say, Shizuka or Sasha.

    What could've been ...
  10. pinky166

    pinky166 #teamtrainwreck #teamdiva

    Mao didn't have a 3-3 in her FS that year did she? IIRC at the GPF, she did 3f-3lo in the SP but then in the FS she had one 3a and all 3 of her combos in the 2nd half, but none of them were 3-3s. So I'm not sure she'd have as much of a cushion on some of these ladies as others are thinking. If Shizuka and Irina did a 3-3 in the SP and one in the FS, that puts them at about equal with Mao, if they did two 3-3s in the FS, that would put them ahead of Mao which combined with higher PCS would mean they would likely win out overall. Yuna had great quality jumps but the spins and performance were not that great yet, plus she was only doing 3-2 in her SP and one 3-3 in her FS, so Kimmie with a 3-3 in her SP and two in her FS (even though they'd never get ratified today, they would have then) and similar PCS would have likely edged her out. Ando not entirely sure because that was before her overall so she was very rough around the edges from an artistic standpoint and there was the lip and bad programs. Kostner had the hometown working for her and had 3-3 combos and her speed helped her get good PCS, even then. My guess is the results would have been something like:

    1.) Slutskaya
    2.) Arakawa
    3.) Asada
    4.) Cohen
    5.) Kwan
    6.) Kostner
    7.) Meissner
    8.) Kim
    9.) Ando
    10.) Rochette
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Had Asada been eligible Ando would not have been at the Olympics. She was controversially put on the team as it was over Nakano (better season, beat her at Nationals) and Onda (finished 4th at Nationals which technically based on National results should have qualified with Mao inelgible, and 2nd in LP there) so forget her being put on the team over Suguri who was 1st at Nationals vs only 6th for Ando, and who had done better at Worlds the previous year.


    Ando was on the Japanese team because of the sponsorships she had, so big companies (like Toyota) stood to gain a lot if she actually skated well.

    I was thinking myself that if Asada had been eligible, the Japanese team would have been comprised of Asada, Suguri, and Ando.

    And while I think it's reasonable to believe that Asada would have been in the top 4 (or even could have won), I do not think it's realistic to assume that she would have won. Olympic ice has a lot of pressure and is known for unpredictability.
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Sorry but thinking Ando after her season and Nationals result would have ever been put on the team over Arakawa, a former World Champion, or Suguri the many time and that years Nationals Champion and multi World medalist is beyond delusional and plain stupid. It is about 20 times more dleusional than those who are thinking Ando has a chance to make the upcoming Olympic team right now (which in itself is quite delusional but still 20 times more likely than her hypothetically being put on the team had Asada been a go given all that happened that season and at Nationals).

    It is true I am not the biggest Miki Ando fan but that has nothing to do with what I am saying here. It is plainly obvious there is NO chance Ando would have been on the team had Asada been age eligible. It was acceptable to fudge and put her on the team when she didnt deserve it for the reasons you stated over then relative nobodies like Nakano and Onda, especialy when she probably had a better chance to do well than them anyway despite her mediocre season, but no chance with her results that year and Nationals result she would have been put on the team over any of those others. I would bet my house on it. I say all that despite that I think a clean Ando would place higher than a clean Suguri that year, LOL!
  14. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    I believe the judges really wanted to give it to Cohen. She would have won imo if everyone had skated clean.
  15. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    What does a Kwan who "[was] there and skated clean" even mean? She had a hip injury that had been progressively developing since 2002 until it ultimately resulted in a torn labrum (which may or not have been the "groin injury" that caused her to withdraw from the Olympics.

    Are we supposed to guess what she was like at her :sekret: skates for the USFSA monitoring panel were like and extrapolate from there? Do we ignore all of her injuries, and not those of the other skaters on the list?

  16. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    Are you kidding? They would have dropped Suguri.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    They would not have dropped Suguri. The JSF adores Suguri to pieces and she won Nationals, they arent going to leave the Nationals winner, a 2 time World medalist, and the highest Japanese finisher from the 2005 Worlds, home from the Games. Ando with her 6th place at Nationals had no chance of the Olympic team had Asada been eligible. I cant believe anyone is even debating this whatsoever. It was even a surprise when she was named over Nakano at that point.
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Agreed, speculating on Kwan is really pointless for all the reasons you stated, and speculating on Asada and Kim who werent even eligible for the Games is also pointless. Might as well stick to speculating on if the skaters who were actually there and had a chance had all done their best (or their perceived best) if one is going to do a topic like this.
  19. kukkura

    kukkura Active Member

    This thread has had only 12 or so candidates for Top 10, so how about another one? Without her back problems and other injuries, I think 2006 would have been a peak season for Susanna Pöykiö. She did have a 7 triple layout with two flips.
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I like Poykio but she did a clean short at the Olympics and ended up with only 53 points and 4 points behind someone like Emily Hughes (who did the same jumps). What kind of placement are we talking. Top 10 if she were healthy maybe, but even then probably no hope in an all clean competition with all the people mentioned there unless she did a program with some triple-triples and much more speed than she had ever had before.
  21. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Active Member

    Poykio was such a beautiful skater and always undermarked by mean and terrible judges.
  22. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Active Member

    Why did the judges like cant jump Lepisto and no good at anything Korpi more than the beautiful and athletic Poykio. So underrated.
  23. pinky166

    pinky166 #teamtrainwreck #teamdiva

    Poykio often doubled everything too, and IIRC, she was slow across the ice.

    But more importantly, she wasn't as pretty as Lepisto and Korpi, so that's probably why. :p
  24. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

    Korpi definitely gets marks for her prettiness. She is sexy and could probably do porn if she wanted.