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What would podium at 2000 Worlds have been had Irina and Maria done clean longs

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Apr 2, 2013.

What would the podium at 2000 Worlds have been had Irina and Maria done clean longs

  1. Kwan gold, Slutskaya silver, Butyrskaya bronze

  2. Kwan gold, Butyrskaya silver, Slutskaya bronze

  3. Butyrskaya gold, Slutskaya silver, Kwan bronze

  4. Butyrskaya gold, Kwan silver, Slutskaya bronze

  5. Slutskaya gold, Butyrskaya silver, Kwan bronze

  1. joubertelegant

    joubertelegant Member

    I presume you have never seen Julia skate. Julia has tiny, ugly jumps, no footwork, weak artistry, no speed, and skates like a little girl. Her only assets are great consistency, high difficulty, and great spins. Julia could never hope to beat a clean Sotnikova, clean Kim, or clean Kostner, thus with the others skating so well, the medals would remain unchanged. Julia often does well since her consistency is super, and it is hard to skate clean programs all the time like she does, so she usually beats her rivals with clean skates, but in Sochi everyone who mattered was clean so her chances are sunk.
  2. alchemy void

    alchemy void #Perkova2018

    :lol: That's almost as ridiculous as saying Artpop is a listenable record.
  3. ladygagafan

    ladygagafan Member

    Maria is just not a world champion caliber skater. So a 2 time is unimaginable. I cant think of someone as weak or average as her winning 2 world titles. Miki Ando atleast had great jumps. There is nothing that impressive about her skating in general technically or artistically. She might do some really good performances once in awhile like her 2000 worlds short program or 1999 worlds free skate, but overall as a skater she just isn't what you look for in a world champion. She lucked out to win worlds once in an overall super weak field (everyone except Maria and Michelle was either retired, not on the scene yet, or slumping/injured/out of worlds, didnt someone named Bulia Polpotapova win the bronze that year and drop to 18th by 2001 when the field had built up again)and that should be good enough. I agree she would have won in 2000 had she gone clean, but the sport would have stopped existing then, so thankfully she didn't and we still have figure skating today and Maria didn't cause it to end.

    It also would have been unfair to Kwan to skate clean in all 3 programs and lose to Maria skating cleanly in only 1 of 3. I am assuming Maria doing a long program good enough to be 2nd over Irina's off skate to back door to win (or gifted 1st as a defending champ and short program leader token), since imagining a clean 7 triple long from her is impossible as she isn't capable of that, so the hypothetical for her is 6 with 1 miss, thus leaving the short as her only clean skate even then.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    The whole qualifying round counts thing was really stupid. It would have made a lot more sense had the QR included every entrant competing against one another in one single group rather than separated.
  5. ladygagafan

    ladygagafan Member

    I agree. Lets imagine Maria did the same LP she did (not a very good skate obviously) and Irina missed 1 more jump. Maria probably would have backdoored to the title with a mediocre LP, a mediocre qualifying skate, and only a great short program but nothing else. Michelle with a very good qualifying LP, an excellent SP and an excellent LP would have lost the title just due to the qualifying round counting.

    Michelle would have had a shot at the title going into the LP at the 2002 worlds without the qualifying round too. It was only because of it she didn't. This time atleast she made a big mistake in the SP and was only 3rd due to the weak field, so it wasn't as bad as the 2000 situation.

    It makes no sense to count the qualifying round. I don't know what they were thinking. Maybe they didn't want the skaters to just tank their skate, especialy the better ones who could still make it in easy. So they wanted to make it mean something. However it still feels stupid. It is counting like compulsory figures used to, but it has 1% the relevance to skating that compulsory figures had.

    Apparently the reason they split the groups is the same reason they have a qualifying round. It is too hard for the judges to keep track of 40+ skaters and judge them all against each other. So this is a way they never have to judge more than 25 against each other, and make it a bearable and doable job. Which I understand, but the groups are often unbalanced, which makes counting it all the more unfair.
  6. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    Maria would never be allowed to win a big event over a clean Irina and clean Michelle. She skated cleanly at the 98 Olympics and was still placed behind a past her prime Chen who didn't skate cleanly. She skated cleanly at the 96 worlds and was behind a juvenile Slutskaya with a huge fall. She skated cleanly at the 97 worlds and was put behind then nobody Gusmeroli who had mistakes. She won 99 worlds only since nobody good was there besides Kwan who fell. Those of you who voted Maria are smoking some strong stuff. I like Maria but judges never liked her skating. Just more proof FSU polls are only popularity contests. I guess Maria has big fan base here as that is the only way she could ever win such an illogical poll for her to win.

    Had she skated cleanly, and Irina still not, she would have won but it would have been by default with Irina and Michelle's misses in the short and Irina's in the long. Thus allowing her with the 2nd place she would have gotten in long over unclean Irina, to back door her way to another lucky title.
  7. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Having the qualifying round count towards final results was stupid, esp when they had to split them into two groups. The combination of Kwan's QR and SP shouldn't have knocked her out of contention for gold against Bute's QR and SP.

    COP was a fairer system in that regard compared to factored placements. You never get knockd out of contention for a title or a medal, and if you do deliver in the long, you can jump right back up without the help of ordinal flip flops or someone to place between you and another skater. I mean, why should your placement in relation to one skater be determined by the placement or performance of another skater? Makes no sense.
  8. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    Even though I voted in the scenario of Slutskaya gold, Butyrskaya silver, and Kwan bronze, I personally would have preferred to see Maria win as I enjoyed the combination of her programs the most of anyone else that season. The juxtaposition of Maria's "Scene d'Amour" and "Swan Lake" showed great versatility, beauty, drama, and shade. I'm not oblivious though to the fact that the judges and the Russian federation always preferred Slutskaya over Butyrskaya, whether justified or not. Clean Maria at times got hosed when Irina was flawed, so if they both went clean, there's no doubt in my mind that Butyrskaya would be placed behind her. I didn't particularly care for Kwan's "A Day in the Life", but I loved her "Red Violin." "A Day in the Life" did not seem to suit Michelle and she struggled with it mightily that season; it just seemed too uncomfortable and not second nature to her. I was so proud of the grit, speed, ease, and fight that Kwan displayed in her Nice LP; her inner warrior shined so brightly it was as if she transformed into beautiful Mulan on the ice. Amidst my sadness for Maria's LP, I was so thrilled for Michelle's victory there!
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I actually think "A Day in the Life" might be Kwan's most underrated program. Even more so than "Miraculous Mandarin".
  10. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    I loved Kwan's short program in 2000. It was a departure from her usual style and refreshing. I think the judges did too. Some judges had her 2nd over Irina despite a very poor (albeit still clean) triple flip. Had she done that jump fairly solidly she probably would have been 2nd in that short over a clean Irina, and it would be the only time after 1999 she beat a clean Irina in the short outside of America. Maria had probably her best short program ever, and was just untouchable that day. Even the judges who hated her throughout her career had no choice but to put her first for a skate like that.

    I wasnt as fussy about Kwan's long, but there is no doubt she skated it excellent and with all out abandon that night. It also showed her versatility as using music without a real melody to it was a big risk, and difficult to pull off as well as she did.

    I might come across as a Maria hater but I am not. I just know like museksk8r the judges would never let her win an event where both Irina and Michelle skate cleanly. She would have won those worlds with a clean skate, but that is only due to Irina's mistakes and the factored scoring giving her an insurmountable lead over Kwan. Had Irina skated cleanly in the long, Maria could have never beaten her and won even going clean herself. Anyone who voted for Maria needs to read my summary of Maria's career again:

    1996 worlds- skated cleanly and lost bronze to Irina who took a huge fall and had juvenile presentation back then.
    1997 worlds- skated cleanly and lost bronze to no name Gusmeroli who had many mistakes.
    1998 Olympics- skated cleanly and lost bronze to past her prime Chen who didnt even skate perfectly.
    1999 worlds- won but the field sucked. Some junior skater who was never heard of again won the bronze that year. Had Malinina not turned out of her triple lutz in the short she would have won silver just behind Maria for sure. MALININA people, was one fluke mistake away from the world silver, for those who forget how bad that junior skater whose name I dont remember who won bronze was.

    Judges hated her and her skating. Just the way it is.
  11. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    You really ARE a little monster, aren't you? :blah::shuffle:
  12. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    In hindsight the Russian fed. was really stupid to put all their eggs behind Irina, and not atleast try and support Maria and Irina both as contenders, if not even make Maria the Russian #1 instead. They relied on Irina to win gold medals for them at worlds and Olympics, while casting Maria aside and having to fight for anything she got on her own. Irina though almost always failed them and didnt bring home the gold medal:

    1996 worlds- she couldnt have with how Michelle and Lu skated probably anyway, but had she gone clean and Michelle and Lu made a mistake she could win. She didnt skate well, and took a huge fall on her side.

    1997 worlds- fell in the short. Had a good shot of winning otherwise with the LP she did.

    1998- fell in the short and long.

    2000- skated her worst LP of season and still had some 1st place votes. Huge blow.

    2001- again choked, similar to 2000.

    2002 Olympics- the biggest and most easy opportunity blown yet. Huge choke.

    2006 Olympics- almost on par with 2002.

    2006 worlds- Wanted to skate, but filed her entry too late. I count this as it was a huge mistake, even if off the ice this time.

    So Irina had 10 possible chances to win worlds and took only 2. Maria had only 2 chances ever to win worlds or Olympics due to no support from her federation and took 1 of 2. A far better success rate. The judges would have been far better off making Maria who was a much stronger competitor and a bigger fighter than Irina their #1. Plus her wonderful artistry is what they needed to go up against the great artistry of Baiul, Kwan, Chen, and Cohen, and she had technical ability too. Irina with her horrible artistry meant they had to politic harder, and work even harder on cohersing people to overcome and make her a gold threat, and when she missed anything technically (which she usually did in big events) there was nothing to fall back on for her to still win anymore. Maria as Russian #1 with her great artistry and Russian bribing/politics could possibly have missed a thing or two technically and still won, while Irina as Russian #1 had to rely completely on technical ability to overcome her horrible artistry, and as she proved over the years she couldnt be counted on to deliver technically error free skates in big events rarely brought home the bacon for them.

    Irina also didnt know how to peak at worlds or Olympics. How many times did she dominate and skate perfectly in the regular series events, grand prix final, Europeans, only to not deliver at worlds or Olympics to win. The far more competitive and tough Maria probably would have done the opposite for them, built her season to worlds or Olympics and peaked there for them.
  13. artsciboy

    artsciboy Active Member

    I would argue that Maria's losses in the examples you posted were more a reflection of her own performances rather than judges hating her skating.

    1996 Worlds - Maria did not skate cleanly - she had a shot at the medal but let it slip away from her. She had a hand down on her second 3loop (and didn't get a combination in). If you count her 3lutz at the beginning (which was arguably two-fotted), she landed 5 clean triples. Irina may have had a fall, but she also landed 6 triples and multiple combinations. Given Irina's technical content, it was easy for judges to place Irina over Michelle.

    1997 Worlds - Again, Maria let a medal slip away from her. Gumeroli had mistakes for sure, but so did Maria. She landed only 4 clean triples, and 2-footed her 3flip and doubled the lutz. Not to mention singling a 2axel at the end and then falling out of one of her final spins.

    1998 Olympics - Sadly, another missed opportunity for Maria. Maria had arguably two-footed the 3lutz and 3flip at the beginning, doubled out on the second 3toe and then left out a second 3loop. So all in all, she had 3 triples with no combination. That she finished just one judge short of a bronze medal tells you that judges were willing to give it to her if she delivered.

    At the end of the day, judges didn't hate her. They all saw the potential that Maria had in practices, but Maria's nerves did her in during the big competitions. She did not deliver the content on those days you pointed out to justify winning over others. That said, I do think that the Russian Federation's backing of Slutskaya at times held her back, but more often than not it was Maria's own performances. That said, I still think given Maria's momentum, if she had skated cleanly in the LP at 2000 Worlds that she would have won.
  14. weaselfood

    weaselfood New Member

    Maria also skated with no artistry in her 98 Olympic LP when artistry is usually her strength. She was so stiff and nervous she not only missed over half her jumps, but skated with no emotion, style, performance level, or feeling for the music either. Had she skated with any of her usual artistry she probably would have won the bronze even with all the missed jumps.

    The same was true of her 2000 worlds LP. She was so nervous she didnt skate with much artistry, in addition to not jumping well.
  15. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Well-Known Member

    What Maria could you possibly be referring to? lol! I've always thought Butyrskaya looked stiff out there, with jarring landings even at her best! I can remember appreciating her just once; at the 2000 NHK where she should have beaten Irina, but past over scoring caught up with her! It was like "don't cry for me Argentina" when she skated beautifully, landing 2 great triple lutzes! Even Peter Carruthers thought she was the new champion! She of course was crestfallen as was I even though I preferred Irina who took Gold! Earlier in Paris Maria was flopping all over the place taking 1st place, but Jennie Kirk skated very nicely, ending with a 3-Lutz and wound up with Bronze! Loved Maria's SP to Brightman's, "Scene d'Amour" though!
  16. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    I just reviewed back those performances, and you are right, they are not as clean as I remember. I still would have given her the bronze at each though, which still indicates to me the judges were not on her side and generally did not like her:

    1996 worlds- Irina's extra triple was a triple salchow, big deal. I would have had Irina ahead technically but well behind artistically. 5.6, 5.5 for Irina and 5.5, 5.7 for Maria. Irina's scores for the first skater in the final flight and that skate was crazy. Some of the judges had her closer to Chen than Kwan, which also proves how poorly scored Chen (who most thought should have won) was that night too. Irina's scores were fine in comparision to how Kwan and Chen skated that night, but Irina's crazy scores meant Maria had to be letter perfect to beat her.

    1997 worlds- Gusmeroli still had more mistakes, and her long program wasnt as mature, sophisticated, or musical as Maria's. I think Vanessa's great short program helped her in the minds of the judges when they scored her long program.

    1998 Olympics- Even though Chen had fewer mistakes, and landed more triples and difficult triples, and had better artistry that night too probably, I would have given Maria the bronze. Chen's technical skills were so far behind the other top women by then, that even with her absolute best technical performance and someone elses subpar technical performance, her technical mark should still be behind. I probably would give Maria 5.6, 5.7 that night and Chen 5.3 or 5.4, 5.8.

    Maria also should have won the 2000 worlds even with the skate she gave. It was better than Irina's, and that is all she needed. I would have scored Kwan 5.7, 5.8, Maria 5.5, 5.9, and Irina 5.8, 5.6 Maria would overcome Maria for 2nd place in the long due to the artistic mark tiebreaker with a .3 lower technical mark and .3 higher artistic. Atleast it should have been close, but not even 1 judge had her over Irina, yet again proof of what Maria's whole career proves, judges did not like her. Meanwhile overscored Irina nearly beat an outstanding Kwan even with not her best technical performance and a horrible artistic effort that night.

    Here are some other events I forgot to mention:

    early 97 grand prix final- skated cleanly and was placed below Kwan who had 3 big mistakes and Irina who had less triples, mistakes, and horrible artistry in her skate.

    late 97 grand prix final- landed 7 triples with some shaky landing/small mistakes, and lost to Szewcenko who also had 7 triples with some shaky/landing mistakes but much worse artistry, weaker spins, poorer technique on her jumps in general.

    98 grand prix final- did have a couple falls, but still should have beaten Malinina who had an empty program, awful spins, no footwork or spirals, no artistry, and landed only 1 more triple.

    NHK 2000- this was mentiond by others, majorly hosed by Irina.

    Nations Cup 95- majorly hosed by Kwan.

    Europeans 94- should have won gold or silver here. Outskated Bonaly, Baiul, and Markova in the long after a solid short. Judges didnt care, was already demoted to Russian #2 after her 93 worlds meltdown.

    2001 worlds- should have won silver overall. Bad qualifying round which ultimately cost her atleast a bronze, but with fair judging 2nd best short program behind Irina, 2nd best long behind Kwan, and Irina with her 4th place in the long behind Hughes drops behind Maria into 3rd.
  17. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member


    I checked the scores both skaters and the for me they clearly indicate the judges didn't like Kwan's short program. Kwan didn't even beat Slutskaya in the 2nd mark which was ununsual at Worlds those days but made sense since A Day in the Life was one Kwan's worst programs while Appassionata was one of Slutskaya's best.
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I did not like Appassionata. I dont find attempts at soft and elegant programs fitting for Irina. I felt the same about her 2002 short. That isnt to say she can skate it in a dominant fashion and be worthy of winning the short, but her 2001, 2005, and 2006 short programs are examples of ones that fit her style of skating and make her as artistic as she is capable of being perfectly.

    I loved pretty much all of Kwan's shorts and loved her Beatles one too. Pretty much my only criticism of it was her footwork sequence seemed to pay too much to musical utilization and not enough on the steps, and it seemed to be quite a simple sequence when she normally has one of the hardest of any of the girls. I loved the versatility she showed in her short programs through her career. Pretty much the only one I didnt even like, let alone love, was her 99 one. I cant explain exactly why, but it just didnt appeal to me at all. I dont think I found the cuts of music used from Carmen very fitting, and the choreography just didnt work. That she skated it so poorly at worlds, when I didnt even like the program to begin with, made her placing there even more disturbing to me.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  19. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

    Feel the same about all of this! I thought I was the only one that didn't like The Fate of Carmen, I get puzzled when I hear people saying it was their favourite SP. On the other hand, A Day in the Life was my favourite Kwan SP by some stretch, that program had everything for me, and at Skate America/Worlds she was exceptionally on fire artistically with it.
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    It's not about loving or not a skater. I think judges judge figure skating ! Maria had style, but not the best skating. Really, she achieved a lot considering her stiff knees.
    When there is a doubt between two skaters, judges usually go for the best skater in term of basics, I guess.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  21. kristykremes

    kristykremes New Member

    Michelle Kwan would be 3rd for sure. That isn't to diss her in anyway since I thought her performance was excellent but given her marks, skating order, the short program rankings, that all makes it pretty obvious. The only real question is which of Maria and Irina would have won if both skated perfectly. The two of the should be the poll alone, without Kwan. The people who voted Kwan are probably set in the idea she could never lose a competition skating cleanly ever. Yu Na Kim fans had the same delusion once upon a time and then got a wake up call in Sochi.
  22. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I think the judges hated it, or at least never warmed up to it. They were willing to overlook Slute's poor combination jump and travelling layback and put that ahead of Kwan's essentially clean effort. I think the judging at the short program at these Worlds was a major reason why she dumped Rush and went back to classical right after losing to Slute at Skate Canada the next season.

    Bute wasn't clean at these events, but I would probably have given her the bronze in both 1996 and 1997.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  23. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    With all due respect referring to Slutskaya's very slight shakiness on the triple lutz landing like a significant break, and Kwan's large swing around landing on the triple flip as essentialy clean seems a slanted and biased perspective to give. Both landings were imperfect, albeit both technically clean and not requiring a mandatory deduction, but it is clear to me Kwan's landing on those two jumps was the worse and bigger struggle of the two.

    Both Kwan and Slutskaya received very good presentation marks in the short btw. Kwan received some 5.9s and all but 2 judges atleast 5.8 for presentation, so I don't see on what planet that is not liking the program. Slutskaya mostly beat her on the required elements marks which make sense, and was the norm between them in the short program. Butyrskaya had the highest marks in both required elements and presentation with almost all 5.9s for presentation, which for her performance that night, especialy lucking out to be the very last skater, also made sense. I believe if Kwan had a cleaner triple flip she would probably have been 2nd in the short, and maybe even had some 1st place ordinals, so it is not the program that was the problem but that she had a big struggle on one landing in a rare year she had more one person as real competition. At the grand prix final Kwan won the short over a clean Slutskaya, and she easily won the short program at her grand prix events, even getting a 6.0 in 2 different ones, which also doesn't indicate the judges not liking the program. Remember it is not like Kwan was ever the Torvill & Dean of ladies skating and was showered with 6.0s for presentation even for her best ever performances or programs anywhere but Kwan...err I mean U.S Nationals. :rofl:

    Now her Rush program is another thing altogether. Given that at Skate Canada she skated perfectly and was not only easily beaten by Slutskaya in elements marks, but presentation marks, the judges might not have liked that program at all. Which is a shame as I found it fascinating. Maybe she just needed more miles on it, but I guess she thought it wasn't worth the risk.

    I also liked her program she used at the grand prix final later that season which she never used again. I think unlike Rush this was a mistake to not use again as it was a great program, but it was so new she wasn't that smooth yet, and with more miles I am sure the judges would like this particular program. She already had a great program to the Black Swan for the remainder of that season, but should have used her 2nd long at that years grand prix final back for her Olympic year rather than that boring Scheherezade number.
  24. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    I would have given her the bronze at the 98 Olympics too. She landed only 3 clean triples to 5 for Chen, only 1 triple lutz and no triple-double vs Chen who did both, had 4 mistakes to only 2 for Chen, and attempted only 5 triples to 7 for Chen. In addition her artistry was also far from her usual standard of that particular program of Otonal (IMO her best ever program when skated well), and not as good as Chen's that night. So in a way given all that it might seem silly to say Maria deserved the bronze. However even with all that Chen's spins were so pathetic, and her jump quality of even her clean jumps so below the other top women by then, I would still given Maria the bronze. Plus as European champion that year would give her the benefit of doubt, if the decision is at all close, vs a skater who hadn't been a top skater for 2 whole years.

    5.5 technical merit and 5.8 presentation for Lu and either 5.6 or 5.7 for technical merit, and 5.7 or 5.8 for presentation for Maria (whichever combination had her ahead) for me probably.

    The sad thing is Maria was forced to skate until 2002 past her prime to try for an Olympic medal where she probably would have retired happily after losing her world title in 2000 had she won the bronze there. I wonder if she had won gold at the 2000 worlds and silver at the 2001 worlds (which she would probably do with the same skates had she been the 99 and 2000 world champion) if she would have stayed until 2002 or realized at the rate her technical skills were declining post 2000 and the emergence of people like Cohen and Hughes, if she would still pack it in at that point one year from the Games had she won the bronze in 98.
  25. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Neither Kwan's flip nor Slute's combo deserved a deduction but Slute's travelling layback did/should. It did travel pretty horribly.

    Because Kwan and Slute were not supposed to receive comparable presentation scores to begin with. There was a finesse and control in Kwan's skating that Slute never had. Also, I don't think Slute's slower programs brought out her best qualities / hid her weaknesses the way her 2001 Culture program did. Not to mention Slute's flaw in the combo had a more significant impact on the flow of her program than Kwan's.

    I mentioned above about the deduction on the layback for Slutskaya. Other than that, they should have similar base mark and believe it or not 2000 Worlds short program was one of Kwan's fastest skates and featured some of her fastest spins too.

    IIRC she beat Slute on a 4/3 split there which should already be alarming to her and I think was probably why she had to upgrade to the flip for Worlds.

    I like Rush better than ADITL as it showed off even more flow for Kwan and the program was scattered with little transitions and different bodily shapes.

    I think the original plan was to use Rush for 2001 and save East of Eden for 2002 but she got nervous about Slute's momentum and didn't want the perception to build that she and Slute were comparable (which was exactly what happened).

    Miraculous Mandarin was another masterpiece in the making for me. The potential was clearly there even for the one time she skated it on tired legs. Having said that, I would never bet on her using something so 'different' for her all important Olympic season (even if just as another long program for the Olympic season GPF).
  26. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

    To me it didn't look any different than normal, nor something that would be credited as a mistake. Irina's spins always travelled and showed pretty poor centreing, so for the judges it was par as usual for how they wanted to judge it. I thought her final spin in the short at the 02 Games was the one that showed a more noticeable big split second travel in the middle, and was a real mistake, not Irina's spin at the 2000 worlds, yet that is the short people cry endlessly that she didn't win. Go figure.

    The thing I am separating whether the judges chose to give Irina pretty good high presentation scores (which they often did regardless of her competitors or their performances) and if the judges "liked" Kwan's short program. If you think Irina is this horrible artistic skater, as I suspect you do, you probably have disagreed with the presentation scores she got almost every competition she was in, even ones without Kwan in it. So that really is immaterial.

    Kwan got almost all 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation for her short at worlds, even with a bad landing and mostly 5.6s for technical. To me that doesn't indicate hating a program in the least. Nor does getting very high presentation scores on it all year long, including even a couple 6.0s along the way. Getting mostly 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation even for a skate that got mostly 5.6s and a low of 5.4 for elements (which has nothing to do with the program per say), losing 2nd place in the short to Slutskaya (rightly or wrongly) on elements marks, not presentation marks, and having the 2nd highest presentation scores behind only Maria's amazing skate doesn't indicate not liking a program to me. Not to mention the even higher marks she got for some better performances of it earlier that year.

    Again rightly or wrongly, the judges regularly scored Irina the highest on required elements in the short programs from 2000-2002. Usually even on those occasions she lost the short program. Their view as her technical elements in the short were superior to all the other women, Kwan included. Anyway on this instance their marks weren't far apart one either mark, almost identical on both. Which is why it was a 6-3 split.

    I am not saying you might not be right Irina was overscored and maybe Kwan should have been 2nd in the short at those worlds btw. I am simply disputing that it somehow proves the judges hated Kwan's program. IMO that is silly.

    You remember wrong. Irina took only 1 judge off Kwan in the short program there, and that was with Kwan doing only a freaking triple toe, while Irina did a triple flip. I am not sure if the ordinals are online but I remember that event well.

    BTW I am super glad Kwan thought she had to upgrade to a flip, and if the judges somehow did that to her, then hell yeah to them for doing it. I was fine with Kwan's short program wins in 96-98 even with just a triple toe, but by then it was fine time she had to start doing a triple flip like everyone was doing. Can you imagine if Kwan kept winning short programs with the triple toe and by 2002 the only women in the top 15 or something not doing a triple flip, and doing the easiest triple- a triple toe, won the short at the Games. Given the conspiracy theories already going on at those Games, the press would have had a field day with that.

    I liked them both a lot, but I preferred Rush since it was so intricate and original. I don't think the program had quite gelled yet and just needed more time. I still thinks he was greatly undermarked at Skate Canada though. It wasn't that she lost the short program there to Slutskaya that bothered me, it was the runaway victory for Irina even on presentation marks, and the lowish scores they gave Kwan. I agree the judges are at fault here for ending that great program for her.

    I cant help but say here the suggestion (and I have heard it from many Kwan fans, and perhaps with merit) that Irina was overrated to even be a rival or close competitor of Michelle, and the ISU had to almost invent the rivalry, does make it freaking hilarious/dieing of laughter hilarious how Michelle is winning the toughest competition poll going on now. I mean the Kwan era is supposably so weak that other than the 1 year blip of Tara, a competitor for Kwan has to be invented and politically built by TPTB, one cant develop on the ice, and yet she has the toughest competition ever at the same too (splits side of laughter at that). That is another topic though. It is funny in a way since Kim (who seems to have an equally large and crazy fan base as Kwan on this forum) who is crazy overrated in every other poll here right now is losing the only poll she probably deserves to win, to someone who should be dead last on the same poll, ROTFL! Winning best triple flip ever with her triple lip, winning best technical skater ever with only 4 triple jumps and average spins, winning most wuzrobbed skater ever with some asinine scores in her career, and yet losing toughest competition ever to a skater the ISU had to invent a rival for to prevent a 10 year reign without a competitor of any kind. What a forum this is.

    True I guess, but I wish we got to see more of it. I just wouldn't want it to replace the Black Swan since that was a masterpiece which deserved to finish the season. I wish she would have used it again, even for a whole season, as I think it could have been an amazing program and would have gotten a lot better than its debut.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I think had Kwan saved Rush for 2001, and then started the season out with East of Eden as her SP, she wouldn't have seemed to be playing catch up all season. We all should have realized just how bad it was for her when she couldn't even come up with a new Short Program for the Olympic season. I know she ended up winning the SLC SP, but I think a fast and inspired and still fresh East of Eden (as fresh as a SP to a former exhibition can be a la Cohen's Romeo and Juliet) could have really blown the roof off the place.
  28. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I think East of Eden would draw an even bigger response from the SLC crowd than Rach 3 did simply because the spiral sequence was the last element. Kwan would probably be even more justified on her short program win there and less people would think Slute was robbed even if Kwan still had that same blip on the flip.
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Her East of Eden SP was so beautiful. I wish we had seen a whole season of it rather than two half seaons. I think Rush for the 2000-2001 season, or maybe debuting at the grand prix final if she didn't feel it was quite cooked yet to start the grand prix, and East of Eden for the Olympic season would be the perfect plan. Rachmaninoff is probably her all time signature short, but it didn't have quite the same impact being skated again a whole 4 years later, even when she skated it perfectly. I guess it wasn't Bolero (T&D's of course, not Kwan's) in that sense.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I think the whole pairs fiasco in SLC which ended up coming across as very pro NA and anti Russian in the end, made a lot of fan naturally side with the Russians, and against the unfair advantage the NA skaters were now seen to have. Hence the upset of Irina not winning the SP that she just arguably deserved to win, even from many NA skating fans who were offended by the very pro American propaganda spewed and shoved down their throats for a whole week in favor of Sale & Pelletier.

    I think Irina winning the short was the better situation anyway, and the one everyone in hindsight should wish had happened. Kwan would be better off not leading after the short, and Irina would be better off leading. That is the pattern of their careers. Both probably would have skated better, and the nightmare to come would never occur.