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What separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley Wagner's?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Kwantumleap, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Chen Lu - now there is a skater who would have struggled a bit with COP, at least on the spins, and also with URs.

    Of course, she would have been medaling at lot earlier, imo, if COP had been in place in the early 90s.

    There's what skaters did under 6.0, and what they were capable of. I think Kwan could have made the necessary adjustments to the more recent versions of COP. But I don't think Chen could have adjusted. Who knows, maybe I'm selling her short.

    Neither would have done well under the 2006 rules, as far as spins are concerned. That version of COP was insane.
  2. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    To flip things around a bit, I think a skater like Akiko Suzuki would have thrived under the old 6.0 system.
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    What? You don't like seeing 4 Biellmans or 4 Donut spins in one LP?
  4. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

  5. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

    I've always dreamed that, under CoP, Kwan and Chen would have tied ... CoP doesn't have the same prohibition on ties as (I have heard) existed under the 6.0 system. IIRC, the technical elements in their respective SPs were pretty much the same, as well as having similar elements (less Kwan't last triple) in the FS
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Didn't Chen do two triple flips or am I misremembering?

    Edited to add:

    NVM, I just watched it. She did 8 jumping passes (I don't think the double axel after her Salchow counts as a sequence) with two Lutzes, a Triple Flip/Double Toe combo, and two double axels.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  7. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap Well-Known Member

    I'm a Kwan fan that has evolved about the 96 Worlds. I always enjoyed Chen's LP while still thinking Kwan's better, but looking back I'm surprised Kwan won. I loved Salome, but even with slightly better spin technique or whatever Kwan had better at that point (was it a 7th triple?), I would have given the title to Chen. Her complete package of artistry, interpretation, and seamless technical content was a work of art.
  8. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Probably because the the title could have been either way.
    I would have given it to Lu Chen the night of the LP, because of the emotion and beauty of her program. But then, when I watched the both in the exhibition, my feeling was different, and I was impressed by Michelle Kwan, by her consistency, hard work and different styles, at 15 !
    So, in fact, after watching the LP again, I think the judging was fair !
  9. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Under COP, Chen's spins would have been majorly dinged.
    Sparks and (deleted member) like this.
  10. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Of course, but under CoP she would have made an effort to turn her spins better.
    And btw, IMO, she had interesting positions and nice lines in her spins.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  11. taf2002

    taf2002 zexy demon

    I always felt that some of Chen's spin positions were a jarring note in her programs. But her LP in 96 was a beauty. I think her poor performance vs Kwan in the GP had something to do with her loss at worlds. If first place was a toss-up, the judges went with consistancy over the season.

    As for the original question here, you can't compare Kwan's artistry under 6.0 to anyone's under COP. But if you did, Ashley's comparative lack of MITFs plus the basic difference in their stroking come to mind. And of course, Kwan didn't regularly 2-foot.
  12. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    It was always a weak area for her. 6.0 never cared too much though. Under COP, she wouldn't have an acceptable sit spin. Rotations would also be a problem.
  13. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    She spins seriously did regress in 1996. They were much better in 1995.
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I thought in Chen's 96 LP her flying camel and layback spins were strong. Her combination spin was weak though.
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    Skaters prepare for the rules that are in effect when they are competing. Had she been competing under COP, she would have worked on her spins. Same applies to a lot of skaters that grew up and competed under 6.0, and then COP happened. We can't really judge the old programs with the new rules.
  16. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    I feel like you contradict yourself. You acknowledge that her programs pre-2001 could theoretically be labelled as artistic, but then you claim that she was flat-out never an artist simply because her programs post-2001 deteriorated. MOST Kwan fans and non-fans alike agree that her programs 96-2001 were far more complex choreographically. This is a given. How does the fact that she declined artistically over an unprecedentedly long 10 year amateur career erase the 5 years or so where she churned out interesting, complex and unique programs? Most skaters have nowhere near the long career Michelle had, so 5 years of artistic programs should surely be enough to establish Michelle as an artistic skater.
    If you re-watch competitions from 1996, 1997, 1998 - few skaters had such intricate programs set to such interesting music.

    It's also well acknowledged among both fans and non-fans that Michelle had some of the most artistic exhibition programs (again, mostly 2001 and before). Do you know how many non-fans I see who thought she was overrated technically sing her praises all the time when they stumble upon old exhibition programs she did? (Hands, Dante's Prayer, Winter)
    Back when pro-skating was alive, many of the older skaters developed their artistry further during the pro competitions. But Michelle's case was special in that she had both (relatively) difficult and artistically compelling exhibition programs during her amateur prime.

    And by the by? Emoting is a part of artistry and "acting" on the ice. She specifically didn't use a smiral in The Feeling Begins for obvious artistic/atmospheric reasons. After her programs became extremely watered down, she started to add these footwork sequences at the climax which were bursting with emotion. But alas, artistry as with the ability to emote are all subjective.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    deleted post
  18. jenny12

    jenny12 Well-Known Member

    I agree with that in terms of championships, there will be only one Michael Jordan. But in terms of specific skills, there are definitely certain areas that Lebron James is more effective than Jordan like passing and athleticism. However, the championships are ultimately what tell the story which is true of Michelle Kwan. There is no one that can come close to her consistency and longevity, not to mention her overall presence on the ice.
  19. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

    All I can say is I quit watching Taj Mahal after 2+ minutes because I was bored. If you are going to compare an exotic program of hers, why TM, why not TFB? By then MK had a much more commanding presence on the ice. OTOH, this season I love S&D as skated at TEB, I find it intense and powerful, which does remind me of Kwan's TFB and has the same "I am woman, hear me roar" quality.

    As to style, they are very different outside these two programs I mentioned.
  20. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    Some of IJS was heavily influenced by Kwan via Frank Carroll.
  21. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    I think these are the only areas Wagner artistry falls short of Kwan:

    basic skating
    edge quality

    Other than those few things she is equally as artistic.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  22. falling_dance

    falling_dance Coaching Patrick

    So I take it you're a fan?
  23. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    I am a fan of both skaters. Kwan is better than Wagner though. She competed in a tougher era for U.S women and won 9 U.S titles to only 2 so far for Wagner. Even if Wagner wins the next 5 she will still only have 7 against a much weaker U.S field. At the World level Wagner has tougher competition but even that doesnt account for the gap of 9 World medals vs 0.
  24. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    In his interview with Jenny and Dave, Frank Carroll summed up Kwan's presentation very nicely. Wagner is not even close.
  25. SkateBlades17

    SkateBlades17 New Member

    This is kind of a funny question to me because I think that Kwan and Wagner's artistry are not even in the same league. Not to say that Ashley's artistry isn't good, but she can't even come close to the elegance, grace, flow and beauty of Michelle, in my opinion.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  26. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Michelle Kwan had amazing finish to her moves and the openness of her emotions could really draw the audience in, but I also thought that she was actually more expressive in her face than in the way she moved. She seems to held at such an untouchable artistic pedestal and I just cannot agree with it ("How DARE anyone compares any skater to Michelle Kwan?!"). She moved well enough, but I've just seen better. I also never really liked the way she held/used her arms - it was so calculated and just not supple/expressive/natural enough.
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I think Michelle Kwan's style was just more about control of movement (more akin to the classic figure skating carriage) whereas her sister was a lot looser in that regard (and actually fits in more with the way skaters move nowadays). Michelle Kwan's body movement seemed to have a lot more abandon when she performed non-Lori Nichol routines...especially her work with Phillip Mills.
  28. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    It would be a start to banish rarefied words like "components" to the rubbish bin where Jenny Kirk threw her pewter medal. Go back to "beauty," "performance," "artistry," "expression" and any terms that don't sound sound meaningless or a little pretentious. "Choreography" and "interpretation" seem to be the PC words for these things, and those are good. But this use of "components" to mean "artistry" (specifically as it is defined and codified by the ISU) is just like unnecessary jargon.
  29. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Two Olympic medals, five World Championships, three silver and one bronze World medals, and seven more US Championships than Ashley has won.
  30. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I have a feeling that Wagner would skate to Tosca next season if she saw this thread. :scream: