1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi all! No longer will threads be closed after 1000 (ish) messages. We may close if one gets so long to cause an issue and if you would like a thread closed to start a new one after a 1000 posts then just use the "Report Post" function. Enjoy!

What is with the hands over head in Jumps Trend?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Winnipeg, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. Winnipeg

    Winnipeg Well-Known Member

    I used to like the effect of the hands over head during a jump but it seems to be done way too much now........overkill.........thoughts?
  2. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Well-Known Member

    I still love this feature but some skaters (i.e. Medvedeva) do it too many times within a program and it becomes less visually impactful. For me anyway. But, IJS/COP rewards it, so I cannot really fault over-use of the feature. They need to get points where they can :)
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    It gives you a bullet point towards GOE; skaters are going to use it as long as it is rewarded.

    Honestly, it isn't rewarded THAT highly, but it gives you safeguard if something else goes wrong with the jump to keep the GOE higher.
    clairecloutier likes this.
  4. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    zigzig likes this.
  5. zigzig

    zigzig Well-Known Member

    It really only *maybe* adds GOE if the jump was already good to begin with. If the arm variation makes your jump wonky you'll be better off doing a traditional, better quality jump.

    I think for someone like Medvedeva it just adds to her general aura of invincibility.
  6. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

    Lmao at the name of this thread.
    supergirl573, Picton and Kecasyl like this.
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I have to agree with that.
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    As long as it gives extra credit, skaters will do it.

    I would like the Tano jump to be a highlight, and not done 6-7 times in a program.
  9. Scrufflet

    Scrufflet Well-Known Member

    Ditto! I dislike it. I also dislike loading all the jumps in the second half. For me, it disrupts the flow of a program. Choreography is lost and it's just the pointys that matter.
    barbk, barbarafan, umronnie and 3 others like this.
  10. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    I agree all these tanos and doing all the jumps in the second half of the program is making figure skating look like a ugly sport now. It's all cheap tricks now to cover up bad programs and less then stellar skating skills and jumps.
    leafygreens, kwanatic, chapis and 8 others like this.
  11. Jarrett

    Jarrett Firebird for worlds!

    Meds are horrible looking, others like the new russia silver medalist look nice and extended
    leafygreens and barbarafan like this.
  12. zigzig

    zigzig Well-Known Member

    Oof - the 80s'. Wasn't that when a lot of skaters were doing arm variations in their jumps like hands on hips, or down by their sides? Guess it's full circle that COP is bringing back all these oddities (like the A-frame spin which I had no idea existed pre-cop) that were phased out in the Kwan era.
  13. whiteskates

    whiteskates Well-Known Member

    From an estethic point of view tt's definitely being overused. It is not very beautiful. I don't mind one or two in a programme but that's enough. Btw, what does the word (or abbreviation) "Tano" stand for?
    leafygreens likes this.
  14. Kati

    Kati Active Member

    Boitano :)
    barbarafan and Finnice like this.
  15. sadya

    sadya Active Member

    Brian Boitano who made it popular. (I actually thought he invented it, didn't realise it was done before him too)

    Edited to say: sorry Kati, didn't see you had already responded to that. :)
    Kati likes this.
  16. whiteskates

    whiteskates Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the info! So that's where "Tano" comes from! LOL...i had no idea but thinking about it, I do remember that he did that.
    supergirl573 and Iluvid like this.
  17. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Rippon and Trenary arm variations are great. Tano's with fully extended arms look good too.

    At times, the bent arm Tano one some skaters looks like they are having some kind of emotional episode.
    falling_dance, viennese and Iluvid like this.
  18. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I agree that overuse is overkill. I love it when it's done once or twice, or done with variations (sometimes one arm above, sometimes two arms above, sometimes around the waist). Another trick I love that shows exquisite control is when skaters like Brian B and Yuna would land their jumps with their arms still crossed, or the way Michelle would hold that landing edge forever or extend into a spiral.

    There are many ways to add GOEs to a jump and I wish skaters would be encouraged to use multiple ways - instead of just the same bent arm above, and then some weak edge pulls or turns on the landings of all jumps.

    Or that they are holding their buns mid-air worrying that they might come undone.
  19. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    I agree that I don't think that the bent arm "Tano" jumps are as good as the fully extended arm versions. I also like it when skaters land with hands on hips/folded in front like the ladies used to do in the SPs in the 80s/90s when they had a mandatory double.
    sadya likes this.
  20. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Well-Known Member

    I can't think of anything else that can be added to the arms over the head (whatever position) to get more points (aside from more rotations).
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Switching arm positions between separate jumps in a combination?

    or even during the same jump:

    It's still only the one bullet point, but I think that by itself might be enough to bump up an element to the next GOE, whereas a simple arm overhead on a solo jump would only get it partway there.
    chapis, sadya and Meoima like this.
  22. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    This came up in a Canadian ladies conversation and I'll repeat what I said there.

    I got no issues with skaters working the system. Medvedeva knows she only has decent speed and jumping power, so she works the system to max out GOE with arm over her head and rather laborious looking edging and transitional work coming out of the jumps. Not aesthetically great to watch but nonetheless very legitimate.

    I have recommended that guidelines be added to skating to cut down on this overuse, just like how you are penalized once a jump is done twice. I would like to see features only get credit twice and then they aren't counted. That includes grabbing your skate in a lift or reverse spin entry or hand over head. And/or there should be PCS penalization for lack of variety of moves/overuse of features.

    Watch the final group of Korean senior ladies nationals and you'll see a scary vision of what's to come. Lots of talent in the final 6 but not a lot of power or athleticism. Most of the skaters had the same content and almost identical layout, right down to ending program with layback with allusion going in. Most skaters had hand over head in jumps. When you see this sort of thing in bulk, it's kinda gross, and takes away from the many things to appreciate, IMHO.
  23. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

    This generation of skaters (13 or 14) only know IJS.

    Their coaches only train them to maximize their points, whether it's arm variations, unattractive bendy spins, backloaded programs, etc.

    I think the ISU should do what they did with the Biellmann and limit the number of times it can be used. Perhaps twice, and any subsequent time it has to be a different variation, i.e. overhead for two, and then on the hips.

    When done well, it can be spectacular ... when not, craptacular.

    Here's Midori Ito with two great arm variations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfzvozAkd9k

    The 90's ladies -- Kerrigan, Harding, Yamaguchi -- all had nice variations as well, but they were done to show total mastery of a jump with good height, distance and impeccably clean landings (even if they were doubles).
    skateboy and Rock2 like this.
  24. zigzig

    zigzig Well-Known Member

    I don't think the ISU can/should limit the tano/arm variations since they don't have an official value in the points/levels.

    Under IJS there will always be code whoring and the ISU shouldn't create new restrictions every season that continue to box skaters in. In fact, Medvedeva's 3+3+3 (even though cheated) made me think there should be some kind of allowance for a wildcard element in the free program to make it more...free. Obviously this would be a nasty Pandora's box but if there's a desire to see more innovation, creativity and variety in the long programs then I wish the ISU would give some serious thought to mixing up the 12 requirement check list.
  25. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    Agree with most of this although I would say overusing a feature is more like boxing yourself in....which I'm trying to avoid.
    Just like with the Zayak rule and with jump rule updates until now I think the objective has always been to promote a well-balanced/rounded program. And since features do have value they should be looked at.

    I like ideas of wild card elements or even go the other way where one element has to be a simple move, such as a spin with no/minimal variations....just quality of position and good speed. Like a layback. I guess the ladies spiral element is supposed to do that but that's a whole other story. I'm stumped on how that element is judged because I see some God awful and short spirals getting +2. But I digress...
  26. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

    Not any more scary than the Russian ladies, IMO. (Ye Lim's arm positions are quite lovely, and Eun Soo won with her cleaner content & expression, despite not having the backended program). And, yes, the layout was quite similar. I hope Ye Lim has not given up on her second triple triple combo. She did 3Lz3T2Lo and 3F3T in the JGP in her FS in Yokohama and at last year's nationals 3Lz3Lo2Lo. A sign of athleticism, IMO;).

    There's no need to limit the variations. Just specify that the same feature on a jump can only earn extra GOE one time. Zing! No reward. No overuse.
    skateboy and Rock2 like this.
  27. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Or encourage the judges to use PCS much more accurately for code whore programs. Some of those TR, CH and IN scores were really given based on quantity, not quality.
  28. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    For pair lift positions, difficult variations "must be significantly different from lift to lift and if similar, will only count first time attempted." I guess the tech panel has some leeway in determining whether variations in two different lifts are similar. As the rules are currently written, two lifts could have significantly different positions that both involve the lady grabbing her skate, in which case they would both get credit. Just as difficult variations in camel positions with different shoulder alignments can both get credit, as can different upright and layback variations (or sit, for that matter), even if several involve grabbing the leg.

    How about if the man grabs his skate in the carry part of a freeskate pair lift? :D

    Sure, but that's a judgment call, so it's up to each judge to determine what constitutes over use/lack of variety. There could be written guidelines to encourage judges to penalize overuse, stop rewarding same variations in GOEs, but I don't see how to enforce it. And sometimes choreography intentionally repeats positions for thematic coherence rather than just code whoring. But if any of those positions happen to qualify as specified in the +GOE guidelines, they could get rewarded more than once.

    Might be interesting to discuss how this could work, how the tech panel would know what to call as levels or as a "choreo" spin etc.
    We would still want to allow skaters the option to put a leveled spin or triple jump as the last element in the program.

    Right now the choreo sequence allows jumps up to 2 revolutions and any spin within the sequence not being called as an element, so theoretically a skater could do three leveled spins earlier in the program and end with the choreo sequence including a simple layback or the like. Variations on single jumps are explicitly allowed there now -- even if there are still more jump elements left in the program.

    Some skaters use the choreo sequence to enhance the storytelling/music interpretation/beauty of the program. Some use it to try out creative elements (not any sustained spins that I've seen, though) that don't fit the point-earning element needs. Others mainly just use it as a rest section.

    There probably could be clearer guidelines so judges can distinguish between sequences that really use it to full effect and deserve +3 vs. those that barely meet the requirements and maybe deserve -GOE. But of course good choreography in the sequence and good execution should also translate in to higher PCS.

    There is no required spiral element any more -- the spiral sequence last existed in 2010. The first few years of the Choreographed Sequence in the senior ladies' freeskate did require at least one brief spiral position, but even that is no longer the case.

    It's hard to enforce that every individual judge will remember whether they've seen the exact same feature on a previous jump in the same program. And even if they do remember and don't reward it the second time, they still might give high GOE to the second element for other reasons and we won't know for sure whether they counted the variation or not.

    Again, we don't know exactly why judges give the scores that they do. The ISU could write more explicit guidelines about what they want to see rewarded and penalized in those components, but there isn't a mechanism to let us know for sure what each judge was thinking.
  29. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    Fair points. I can't disagree with you.
  30. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    Ehhhhh, I see that as a problem with judging in general, so nothing new here. Doesn't mean you don't put the rule in.

    And it's not just PCS...ISU has had to work extra hard to get judges to penalize lack of steps going into the triple in the short, but they are slowly getting better at it. Can be done...