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What happened to the Triple Axel/Triple Toe Combo?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Bryan, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Bryan

    Bryan Active Member

    I admit, I haven't been paying too much attention to men's skating as of late, but from the programs I've seen, I don't recall seeing the triple axel/triple toe combo. When the men are doing a triple axel combo nowadays, it seems like they're always tacking on doubles. Is that intentional?

    Back in the Stojko/Eldredge/Yagudin/Plushenko era, this was the combo you needed if you wanted to compete with the best, and we regularly saw it performed in the SP. But now all we get are triple flip/triple toe combos in the SP. I know the SP requirements have evolved over the years, but I really miss seeing a great triple axel/triple toe combo.

    Someone help me, I am COP-challenged and haven't kept up with all the rules. :COP:
  2. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

    with COP, doing harder combos like that don't get you any more points than if you tack the 3toe onto the 3flip or whatever, so there's not much reason to do difficult combos like that anymore! :(
  3. ltnskater

    ltnskater Active Member

    I think it boils down to two reasons.

    One, it used to be in the SP, they were required to do a mandatory double axel (similar to the ladies rules up until a few years ago), which meant the highest combination they could do was the triple axel triple toe (well loop but let's not count that). Therefore, many skaters did that combo, now that you can do a double or triple axel, skaters tend to go for the triple axel, and do a less difficult triple triple combo to maximize points (because you can't repeat the triple axel again).

    So for example, doing a triple axel, triple lutz triple toe, triple flip is going to get you more points than doing a triple axel triple toe, double axel (can't repeat the triple axel), and triple lutz/flip.

    Second reason more for the long program, you still occasionally see a triple axel triple toe, but because of the number of triples you are able to repeat (only 2), most skaters, even if they repeat the triple axel, will rather do a triple axel double toe, and do the triple toe as the 2nd part of a jump combination on an easier triple e.g. lutz or flip, you get the same amount of points, and it is less risky.

    Similar logic here: triple axel triple toe and a triple lutz double toe, is worth the same as a triple axel double toe and a triple lutz triple toe

    - using the above example, skaters are able to even further maximize their points using the 10% bonus in the second half as they are more likely to be able to perform a triple lutz triple toe combo than the axel combo in the 2nd half of their program! (Because the lutz toe combo is much more manageable than an axel toe combo late in the program)

    Ok, so I guess that's 3 reasons, 2 big, and one minor reason.
  4. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    As of 1998, the hardest men's short program jump content allowed was 3A+3T (or 3A+3Lo but hardly anyone ever tried that), solo 3Lz, and solo 2A. That's why the 3A combo was the deciding factor in mid-90s short programs.

    The 3A+3T started to become less important in 1998-99 when the short program rules were changed to allow solo 3A instead of requiring a solo 2A. Solo quads were also allowed in the SP that year, and quad combinations SP a couple years later. So by the last few years of the 6.0 era the hardest SP jump content allowed was quad-triple combo, solo 3Lz, and solo 3A. Next hardest would have been a triple-triple combination with lutz or flip and solo jump of the other (or solo quad if possible), but still 3A as the solo jump, not the combination.

    It was still worth doing in long programs, and skaters who had been at that level since the mid-90s and had already mastered it would have reason to keep doing it there. But some skaters found it more valuable to repeat quad and 3T (for two difficult combos) rather than to repeat the axel.

    And with IJS, the points for each jump are specifically spelled out so that there's no advantage to doing, say, 3A+3T and 3F+2T as opposed to 3A+2T and 3F+3T. So the skaters will do whichever is more consistent for them, most likely putting the triple toe on the back of the easier first jump.
  5. Skate Talker

    Skate Talker Replaced the display under my name

  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    And that's why there should be a (very minor) factored bonus for combinations of some sort.

    Watch Hanyu.
  7. zgr4088

    zgr4088 New Member

    But we see some 4t+3t combination.For those who have two quad toe for long program like chan and song, they all do 4t+3t instead of 4t+2t. Does that mean 4t+3t is easier than 3a+3t? Chan even said he often saves a shaky quad toe by attaching a 3t to it.
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    3A-3t was once considered an extremely difficult combination because the 3A itself is a very difficult jump, due to the forward outside edge take off on the 3A, then landing it well enough to be able to attach a 3t to it. The 4t is no easy feet, but the toeloop is an easier jump, and adding a 2t to a 4t is not that difficult if the 4t is landed (instead of a fall). I agree with those who say a triple of any kind, as the second jump in a jump combination should be rewarded more. The COP only adds the point values of the two jumps, so there is no incentive for the skaters to try something like 3A-3t. I love that combination. Viktor Petrenko had a very strong 3A3t combination (he may have been the first one to land it at worlds). Yagudin, Plushenko did fabulous 3A3t combinations and I miss those. BTW I do love the quads too.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  9. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

    This is why I think there should be some sort of value increase (possibly multiply the whole jump by 1.1) for doing a combination.