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What does Wagner need to improve to control her own destiny vs big guns

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 26, 2013.

  1. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    You'll get no heat from me, but I'll say that US ladies were consciously marked LOWER at the Vancouver Olympics so that they wouldn't be able to touch Rochette, and that includes the quite ungenerous downgrade on Rachael's 3-3. They landed all their planned content including 3-3s, and ended up 4th and 6th. Of course, YNK was out of reach, and Mao as well with those three 3As. But Rochette with 2 big mistakes...hmm.

    I don't think Ashley or Gracie would get any special favors in Sochi. Mostly I think the benefit of the doubt will go to Adelina and Liza, as it would for any skater from the host country.
  2. toddlj

    toddlj I was an Ashley Wagner fan before it was cool

    Massive heat coming your way! :D I would agree with your statement about questionable judging, but I wouldn't agree that it is some pro-US only thing. I have seen questionable scoring for many ladies, not just US ones. The problem in my eyes is reputation scoring that doesn't always equate to how they skated that night.

    (...and if there's such a pro-US bias... the recent medal count sure doesn't show it. If we have some conspiracy going, we sure aren't doing a great job of it lately. Just sayin')
  3. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

    I see a pro-US bias more than for any other country in ladies skating, even more than for the Russian ladies. Tuktamisheva skated a really fantastic free at the Worlds this year but was kinda dumped.
    When I was in the US a few years ago (I'm half American) I bumped into a friend who worked for a US tv network just prior to the Turin Olympics. She told me that the Ladies skating event was the main event for the networks in terms of the viewers & that there was a lot pressure to bump up the US ladies in the SP to have them in medal position for the free skate.
    Money talks.
    I'm not saying that the Russian ladies won't get favoured for the same reason in Sochi next year but you can bet that the US will have at least one lady in the final group even if there are six other girls skating better.
  4. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    Call me noob, but I just never get how such things would be engineered post-SLC without inevitable exposure and the obligatory massive scandal.
  5. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    Was there an Olympics where a US lady was put in the final flight and did not deserve to be? Maybe only Hughes 2002 :D , but then she ended up winning the whole thing.
    The US networks have really negotiated much smaller contracts in recent years, given the decline in interest in the sport. I'd guess Japan and S. Korea have money in the sport too (Not saying their skaters are held up).
  6. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

    Flatt in 2010. WAY over marked. Also, Meissner's SP in 06'. She was ahead of Gedvanishvili who was faster & stronger & Meier who was way more artistic.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  7. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

    I surely hope that Gracie does not make the OLY podium. I think she has quite a gift, but is no where near her potential as a skater. Being rewarded too early might turn out to be more of a detriment than a good thing.
  8. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

    I think Flatt isn't the most pleasing skater, but her 'skating' is still at a decent level and skated fairly cleanly in the SP with a difficult 3-3. The only skater definitely better than Flatt but was placed lower, IMO, was Nagasu - how in the world did she get lower PCS than Flatt? Results like this make me think PCS scores are more dubious than presentation marks in the past under 6.0.

    I think that from an objective point-of-view, Gedevanishvili was better than Meissner in Torino, but it still made sense that Meissner ended in the final group. However, I do strongly prefer Meier's skating to Meissner's, personally.
  9. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

    Flatt's SP in Vancouver was not clean. Atleast one of her jumps should have been downgraded and neither her combination or triple lutz were cleanly landed. Unbelievably she had no downgrades and only minor -GOE on one jumps, along with too high PCS for a not clean and slighty shaky skate. Her SP was actually pretty good when really well skated like Nationals but she was way overscored for her Vancouver performance to it.
  10. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    If Sarah Hughes can be Olympic Champion, Kimmie Meissner world champion, I feel that it is very possible for Ashley to be on the podium. You just never know how these things turn out.
  11. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Rochette deserved to be ahead of Rachael and Mirai after the SP by a good margin. She skated with much more maturity then Mirai and had much better skating skills then Flatt. Her lead was enough after the SP that even a couple mistakes in the LP shouldn't have cost her the Bronze medal.
  12. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

    7th place was right for Flatt in Vancouver. The exquisite Lepisto landing 5 triples including a triple-triple should easily beat Flatt's blah LP even with 7, and Flatt only had about 1 truly clean triple in the short program at most and was way overscored. Ando was blah but still the former World Champion skating competently and basically cleanly wont be losing to Flatt.

    Flatt finishing above Nagasu would have been a crime. Flatt's two downgrades in the LP I agree were wrong but they basically negated the 2 downgrades in the SP she deserved but didnt get, and they were almost the skating gods saving things as someone like Flatt finishing as high as 4th in the best skated ladies event ever would have been criminal.

    As for Rochette I would have actually given her the silver over Mao. Mao's choreography, especialy the LP, were tragic that year, and showcased none of her better artistic qualities. Her LP was in fact scary bad, with hideous music, costume, choreography, and pained anguished expressions. Her very high PCS were purely based on reputation that year, nothing else. Her PCS probably should have been equal to Nagasu in the LP at best. Mao's 2 mistakes were also bigger than Joannie's 2.
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  13. RockTheTassel

    RockTheTassel Well-Known Member

    She's definitely not my preference for the podium either. I like her and think she's done well so far, but I'd love to see her improve some glaring flaws and aim for 2018. But if she skates well and the competition happens to work in her favor, she could fairly earn a medal. If that's the case, I hope it's something to build on instead of just settle for.

    I agree with this. The only thing questionable was the lutz in the SP, but Rachael wasn't the only skater who got a break with that. I remember Miki Ando had at least one jump that could have been downgraded but wasn't. And Rachael's LP had some downgrades that were questionable, so I think it evened out fairly. Seventh was about right for her. Mirai suffered a little from undeserved low PCS in the SP and should have been higher than Rachael, but in the end I think she also deserved fourth. And both of them did really well, in my opinion.
  14. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    If everyone skates as well as they can, Wagner won't medal and probably won't deserve to. But I think someone will falter, it won't be her and she'll be the one to capitalize.
  15. lahaa968

    lahaa968 Active Member

    Quite honestly, a big factor that nobody has considered is the PCS. Kim, even with just a decent performance, will score 70+. Kostner the same, and can do 4 triples and score 130+ for her free program. Mao is in the 67-68 range quite consistently, while on average Wagner is at about 63. There's already a pretty large gap in PCS between the top 3 of the last worlds and everybody else.
  16. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

    haha you are a noob.
  17. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    I'm always open to enlightenment. So spin me the tale on how it's done, as it's well known that Melbourne is the epicenter of figure skating intrigue, heh.
  18. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

  19. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    I sort of hope the same, but, at the same time, if skating is a sport, she should be rewarded for how she performs, not marked to encourage her in a certain direction.
  21. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    I don't think Golds team is aiming for medalling in Sochi, but at the same time should she hit the routine of a lifetime and one of Asada and/or Kostner slip up, I think it would be a great boost for her for the 15-18 quad. Even without a medal but a top 5-10 finish it would set her up nicely.