Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Aug 14, 2011.
They are the most beautiful pair on ice since B/S retired. I want them to win.
I don't see V/T as 'beautiful', but strong, with potential to be great.
I think B&S were the most beautiful pair to ever grace the ice. G&G and M&D had their beauty too, but B&S were exquisite with their lines and lyrical expression. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so feel free to disagree with me.
I love them. And think they have all they need except perhaps time but I think by Sochi they should be fine. I don't remember being this excited about a pair in a while. I think they have power as well as refinement and they seem to have a great connection too
I have to admit while I do know that S/S are technically brilliant, I haven't been thrilled with a lot of their programs of late. I absolutely hated the Pink Panther and really thought it was beneath them and a bit juvenile. Though I did like Out of Africa. Personally my issue with them are some of their lift positions which I find awkward and sometimes downright ugly. I also feel a lack of connection sometimes between them. But like the previous poster said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I loved the lyrical expression from B/S but I sometimes found her lines lacking especially in her transitional skating.
In terms of lines and positions, Berezhnaya is/was probably the strongest since Gordeeva; Knees extended, toes pointed, legs always above the hips during arabesque positions, nice dance lift positions. Even her spread eagles and Inas were absolutely gorgeous.
I actually have to say I don't think Berezhnaya's overall positions were always that good. I've seen her not point her toe when she does a sit spin in the pair combination spin, especially in the Lady Caliph program. Everyone has said Berezhnaya is near perfect in this sense, but I didn't exactly see it.
I thought S/S's Pink Panther wasn't that great either. The program had a lot of clever choreography, but it seemed overly prepared and too busy. There was polish, but not a sense of command or power - the sum of the parts was much greater than the whole. That's what I tend to notice with CoP programs in general. P/T's long program wasn't particulary impressive either - I still think their best FP was Paganini back in 2004.
This season didn't feature that much quality pair skating. If any team was robbed in PCS, it was K/S. They definitely deserved higher PCS than V/T.
I agree entirely. The most beautiful and the most underappreciated pair ever.
But they both used broken lines in the first position of their pairs spin in the Lady Caliph and then reverted to classic positions in the second half of the spin .This was typically how their pairs spins were choregraphed .
In any case, who would you consider to have stronger line among female pairs skaters?
Re:judgejudy, I loved B&S, but for me the most underappreciated would have to go to V&V. They have the same Olympic medal count as both B&S and M&D. Were IMHO considerably more entertaining than T&M. Have one more world title than all three , yet they rarely ever seem to be discussed or remembered as anything other than the Russian pair who won in-between Rodnina and G&G.
I agree Valova & Vasiliev are hugely underrated and underappreciated.
I have never heard of Elena Berezhnaya lacking in lines! She has some of the most beautiful lines even in very difficult positions.
There are skaters with better posture than her, but hers was very good too, particularly during the lifts.
I agree about V&V. There was a thread about this a while back. I think politics may have played a role. First, they were ignored because Underhill-Martini were seen as future champions (U&M were always considered huge favorites in pro skating). Later, young G&G burst on to the scene and the Russian fed seemed to push them up. It did not help that Valova made some mistakes and G&G were usually perfect, but V&V had more maturity at that point. Their 1988 worlds LP is one of my favorite programs. They were landing sbs triples and two triple throws in an era when no one else was doing it. They had innovative choreography (thanks to Tamara) while most other pairs were doing traditional pairs skating. V&V were not 'beautiful' like G&G, B&S and M&D, and that may have hurt them. T&M were not 'beautiful' but they may have benefitted from the rules changes to COP, and their huge consistency. I think V&T will benefit too if they maintain the consistency, while improving their artistry/presentation.
I said in her transitional skating which was in between the elements where she had yes also bad posture. And just because you haven't heard it before doesn't mean it isn't true. I personally though she was a little awkward at times. He was always magnificent.
In the pairs' spin, there was the position where Anton did a camel while Elena did a sit spin below him, and I often saw a glaring lack of a pointed toe while she was in this position. This happened more in Lady Caliph than in other programs. When I think of female pairs skaters with stronger lines, Tatiana Totmianina comes to mind, though I definitely prefer Elena's presentation style.
Good greif, I always felt Totmianina's lines were nothing to write home about at all , her spirals rarely had pointed toes, and her lifts were typically flat footed especially in the early part of her career 2001-2004.
Well, if not Totmianina, then who of the 2002-2006 pairs skaters had good posture I wonder? The 3 Chinese who varied: from decent – the improved S/Z, to mediocre – Z/Z, to plain ugly – P/T (which did not prevent them for nearly winning the OG)? Or any of the US-Canadian?
I always found T/M the most beautiful and elegant couple of their quadrennial, with long legs, wonderful positions and classical skating. Probably Petrova, Obertas, or some other less decorated Russian pairs skaters could be on par with Tatiana back in 2002-2006, but for me they lost in overall comparison, due to Tatiana’s height, long legs, arms, and physique which was far more elegant than of the majority of pairs skaters of her time.
Back in 2000, 2001, m.b. in 2002 they still had to work on many things, but even that time she was far better and carried herself more beautiful on ice than most of the skaters (no matter how cold, unemotional, blah.. T/M were leaving everyone).
Surely Tatiana and Elena B. were not ideal in each and every aspect but saying that they did not have one of the best postures and lines at least in their prime years – is weird.
I agree with most of this. Tatiana had really good posture and lines. I noticed it at the 2001 worlds. Their choreography those days did not use it to their advantage, except in their SPs. After 2002, Obertas seemed to have it all, including lines, posture, Elena-like speed, but she lacked the mental aspect. Her posture was better than Totmianina's, but not on the throws. Like you mentioned, I liked Tatiana's long lines. Petrova has a good back, but she throws her head just a bit too far back. Other than that, I liked her posture, particularly on the landings of throws. Tatiana had wonderful landing positions, leg extensions, and her edge was unbelivably solid. I could never understand why T&M were disliked so much. As you said, no one is perfect; they all have their strong points and a few weaknesses. The Chinese pairs have terrible positions (and I am going to add S&P to that list) particularly on the lifts, but they don't get criticized for their flaws the way Elena (in particulary) and Tatiana are being nitpicked for every little weakness.
ITA that the Chinese pairs had/have terrible positions and I've always said that despite liking their charisma, S&P's general composition in movement, their line, carriage, and posture, left a lot to be desired.Pelletier was a great jump and lift technician, but that "posture" .
Of 2002-2006, Totmianina was easily the strongest in overall composition, as was Berezhnaya from 1998-2002. Nitpicking between the two, I was surprised at shady82's assertion that Totmianina's line was stronger while saying Berezhnaya lacked toepoint at certain instances. Between the two ,I always thought that Tomianina's toepoint was the one that needed more work
The way Totmianina used to land from the throw jumps were always text book and than some more. But everyone hated her for her peculiar cold and distant presentation style especially when they kept beating the internet sweethearts- S/Z.
ITA, especially about Anton being magnificent. The problem B/S seemed to have sometimes was with consistency. Seemingly, nerves often caused them to make mistakes in big moment (e.g., 1998 Olympics sp, which the judges still marked them over Ina & Zimmerman, who performed better in sp that year). In professional ranks, I don't think B/S were ever as inspired as S/P.
How can they feel inspired where they were treated like second rate skaters who did not really win the OGM? They were magnificent in Russia, I am sure. I have watched some of their videos from Russia and it was nice to see them getting the huge ovation they deserved.
About their 1998 SP, inspite of the fall, rest of their program was in a class of their own. Ina-Dungjen could not come close. I agree that I&D's marks were all over the place, but B&S did get low technical marks (5.4's) in their SP. They fully deserved the artistic marks. No other pair came close in fluid movement, speed, lines, unison, height of their split double twist.
Ina & Dungen had a shaky lift in the short program although most of their other elements were very good, and their unision was by far the worst of all the top couples at the time. They also really lacked speed compared to the other top couples. 3rd place in the short program could have gone either way but it wasnt an unjustified result. Elena & Anton had also been the dominant pair that season, usually skating fans understand that gives you some benefit of doubt with judges (human beings, not robots) and accept it, but it seems Elena & Anton never get much benefit with alot of people.
The pro skating World was dead by the time both B&S and S&P turned pro anyway. I dont know how you can even judge them much. The only competitions were cheesy team competitions, one held in Canada and one held in the U.S, so easy to undestand who would have the political advantage in those. Both skated on Stars on Ice for years and were excellent show skaters. Of course S&P were more popular since they had been cast as the heroes and B&S as the villians to all of North America in the media milked SLC so called scandal.
I agree about S&P's posture leaving alot to be desired btw. Especialy his.
Except on this forum where B/S have been sanctified. I read that people like to pick on Elena and Tatiana while ignoring the flaws in other pairs, but I really don't see that at all. There was a very vocal group here that maligned Shen/Zhao before Vancouver, and I remember there were people waiting for S/Z to fail and critiquing everything about them after they became fan favorites in 2003-2004. Also, let's not pretend that Jamie Sale is particularly well-liked, as I think posters have ridiculed her way more than praised her.
Listen, I love Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze (one of my favorite pairs of all-time) and grew to absolutely respect what Totmianina/Marinin brought to pair skating, but there's no need to victimize them just because there's a perception that the majority prefers other pairs (not really in Berezhnaya's case but in Totmianina's) because they have plenty of respect for their skills and OGMs.
I have to disagree with this somewhat. I have seen a lot of nit picky posts about even Elena's strengths (and some posters see nothing positive about her), while other pairs like all the Chinese pairs and Canadian (S&P in particular) are not dissected the way B&S have been. T&M are routinely slammed, and they hardly ever get the respect they deserve. Their OGM has an asterisk on this board ("because of S&Z's injury"). I was never a Shen & Zhao fan and never will be. I respect their perserverance and the positives about them. I respect the way they improved artistically, but I would never put them in the 'revered' category (like "best ever") the way some fsu posters have done. I know it's a matter of taste, but their flaws rarely get discussed here. Even the poor postures of Pang or Z&Z is hardly ever mentioned here. S&P had tons of flaws and some of them did get mentioned here, but only because their names are mentioned alongside B&S's. As soon as you mention B&S or T&M, there are tons of negative comments about them. Still, the Plushenko comments take the cake, IMO but that's a different topic altogether.
I actually feel like B/S are one of the least criticized pairs in FSU - I rarely see them criticized often on this forum. They are an amazing pair, but for some reason I never got why people said Elena's toe point was perfect, because I've seen a couple very obvious times when it wasn't. In contrast, S/P have been criticized much more severely. It's clear that on this forum B/S are much more favored.
But I agree that T/M have been unfairly criticized. IMO their presentation style may not be as engaging as B/S and S/Z's, but they were strong in almost every other aspect. I remember someone once saying S/Z should have won in 2004 Worlds because Pang/Tong were so good in the freeskate, they were better than T/M. And I feel that S/Z and T/M were almost equal in 2006 if S/Z were in full health, especially with T/M's consistency.
Individual posters say all kinds of things, but overall, I don't see T/M being criticized that much. Of course, there isn't really much attention given to them either so I can see how they are underrated.
Also, the Chinese are often criticized (they can't spin, they don't have the correct throw technique, they aren't classic, etc.). I think it comes down to who you're a fan of and if you're a big fan of one skater and not the other, you tend to notice any criticism and negative post. As for posters critiquing one pair but being easy on their favorites, the truth is, it happens to every skater. A loyal huge fan of S/P may go out of his/her way to criticize B/S but downplay S/P's negatives and a loyal fan of B/S will do the opposite.
Meanwhile, back to the original subject, apparently Volosozhar/Trankov did their short program at the test skate today (a version with lyrics, because they don't have their music without yet), and all elements were cleanly done, and the choreography/transitions were seamless. If that's the case, and the same holds true in the LP, they should have even more success this year, as somewhat clunky Morosovian choreography could have been a major holdback. Here's hoping they rise above it going on towards Sochi.
I expect V&T to be better than last year because last year they had to get used to skating together. Now they can create better programs.
Kasey, have you run across a video of the test skate anywhere?
To be fair, Jamie's off ice behaivior/comments seem to have been the brunt of this far moreso than her actual skating.
I love V/T's wonderful qualities -- the way they look together, their personalities, and their presence on the ice. They have time to continue to develop as partners, and to build upon their strengths. Of course, they have an excellent chance for gold in Sochi, not the least b/c the event will take place in their home country. Anything can happen between now and then, but surely the more time V/T have to gain experience together, the better they are sure to become, and they are already very good in spite of their short time together as a team.
If S/S stay healthy and continue to compete (?), and are at their best in 2014, they will present perhaps the strongest challenge to V/T's pursuit of gold. Of course, there are a lot of strong teams that will also have time to improve and to fight for spots on the podium. Right now, I would love to see both V/T and S/S continue to challenge each other for the top of the podium. I like both teams, but I favor S/S more, as I've been a fan since they burst upon the World scene in 2005 with their Casablanca program. There's no doubt that S/S are currently the most innovative and well-rounded pair team in the World (many teams have adopted their innovative approach to pairs skating). S/S are uniquely matched, strength for strength, and their programs always contain challenging technical elements, innovative choreography, speed, and excellent musical interpretation. They also exhibit versatility in the range of programs they have performed (even though I am not always in love with their music and costume choices, I love their commitment and the way they make these choices work in unexpected ways). Despite some of the problems they have had on occasion with injury and inconsistency, S/S are arguably the best team in the world. They train very hard and always expect the best of themselves. Ingo is their secret weapon. I think of this team as S/S and S, The Three Musketeers.
Re earlier discussion of T/M: (they were beautiful together on the ice, but IMO, gorgeous line, unison, and technical precision does not make up for the fact that they lacked chemistry with each other and with the audience -- JMHO). In the case of S/Z, they went from last to first over a ten-year period as they got better and better, improving their spins, lines, artistry, and choreography, as well as further strengthening their amazing jumps, lifts and throws. The defining factor for me when I watch S/Z is the spine-tingling chemistry that is so palpable between them -- the audience is held spellbound. Undeniable magic:
The impact of this performance was even greater due to the fact that Shen was skating injured.