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We are the Resistance #2

Discussion in 'Politically Incorrect' started by clairecloutier, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    I think that the Dems should be open to some form of regionalism. If an anti-choice Democrat plays better in Kansas, that should be okay.

    FWIW, I do still know Catholics who are strongly anti-choice. Also, I think it's possible that voters aren't so blocked off as we think, in terms of crossing party lines. Well I stand by my 1/3 rule. 1/3 of the country will vote Democrat no matter what and 1/3 of the country will vote Republican no matter what. It's that other third that swings.
     
  2. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    From everything I've read that's a huge over estimate of how many voters "swing" with any regularity.

    The old anti-abortion Democrats were willing to compromise a lot to stay in the party. I don't think those who prioritize the issue now are willing to do so.

    Regionalism is a nice idea, but exactly whose rights are expendable? I've thought a lot about this because I'd like to see the Democrats winning sections of the country they are not now winning. Abortion and birth control are of no personal consequence to me. OTOH, am I going to sit here and say its okay for the Democratic Party to provide a home to an anti-gay faction and just allow LGBT rights to be suppressed in certain regions? No.
     
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  3. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Adding this: NPR article Bernie Sanders Defends Campaigning for anti-abortion Democrat

    He's in Omaha supporting a Democratic candidate for mayor who is anti-abortion. When it comes to specific races, sometimes you need to know more about who would be elected if an anti-abortion Democrat was defeated. I can see having some flexibility in that kind of case. (calling @PrincessLeppard ) what I don't see is cultivating candidates to run on anti-abortion platforms.

    It ultimately comes down to which issues people are willing to give on. Bernie's not very savvy about this. He just doesn't get that the issues of most importance to him, which are economic, really aren't necessarily the only critical issues to other people.
     
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  4. jeffisjeff

    jeffisjeff Well-Known Member

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    What about the anti-Muslim candidate? Or the anti-gay marriage candidate? Or the anti-contraception candidate?

    If Democrats take the position that abortion rights are regional then they've basically taken the position that abortion rights aren't rights at all.

    I do agree that there may be specific races in which an anti-abortion Democrat is better than the Republican candidate. But that does not mean we need to weaken the Democratic Party's stance on the issue.
     
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  5. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Its kind of chuckle-worthy in a way that anyone thinks the Democratic Party can weaken its commitment to reproductive rights. I'd say its quite naive. The Democratic Party is made up of interest groups and one of the powerful groups in the Democratic Party is the feminist-abortion rights group.

    It really comes from a place of people believing that rights for a lot of us are just niche issues, and economics is the only thing of fundamental importance.

    This just is not today's Democratic Party.
     
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  6. jeffisjeff

    jeffisjeff Well-Known Member

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    One could also argue that abortion rights is an economic issue.
     
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  7. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Well yes, its just not a 1950s liberal/left economic issue. LGBT rights are certainly an economic issue for LGBT people.

    And this really gets to the crux of the matter. Is the Democratic Party worldview one of a 1950s sort where families generally led by a male bread winner have a certain set of needs defined as economic and other issues are seen as "cultural" or "social" including women's rights, LGBT rights, rights of people of color etc. or do we see our world through a prism of rights for all?

    One view is forward looking, one is not. I don't think we can go back even if some people want to. The Democratic Party has to figure how to appeal to more voters in less populated areas from the perspective of an inclusive world view.

    And the left needs to thank Bernie for all he has done, and find new leadership.
     
  8. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Controversial here I know but I think one can reasonably look at abortion as an issue separate from civil rights. In any case, I don't think the platform should change on abortion but we should look at this on a case by case basis wrt individual candidates.
     
  9. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    How do you look at a abortion separate from civil rights? It is a personal decision that is no one's business but the woman or couple concerned. Why should the decision of an abortion be treated differenty from a couple deciding to use birth control or have a child in the first place?

    If Democrats are going to adopt their candidates to the regions they're running in, then I'm sure the Republicans will claim even more that the party is split and running on different platforms and that no one knows what they stand for anymore and that they don't have a clear, united message.
    While I think that each candidate needs to take a look at what is needed where they're running, I think that a party needs some key issues that they agree on and that everyone can expect them to fight for/against.
     
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  10. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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  11. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that what Sanders was advocating? No where have I seen any mention of changing the DNC platform. It's more about strategic support of candidates in traditionally conservative strongholds.

    Have no idea why some are going on about Sanders wanting to take reproductive rights out of the Dem party except to make a straw man argument so as to bash him needlessly.

    It's like 2016 all over again

    FWIW, Rahm Emanuel has advocated the same thing.
     
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  12. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Vash01 and Buzz like this.
  13. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    Time for the old guard of the DNC to retire and over the reins to a younger generation. Or the gains they have made in these last few months will only be temporary.
     
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  14. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't open your link, but I'm not seeing Sanders fueling any fire. He's offering his insight as to how to make the party grow. And more than a few Dems agree with him.

    There's no way to win elections without broadening one's support. And right now Dems aren't winning broadly enough on really any level. So I'm not sure what the controversy is even about. There are certainly pro-choice Reps--no one thinks that means the GOP has to change its platform.
     
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  15. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    From the link:

    It also mentions that Sanders hasn't endorsed Ossoff and suggested that he isn't a progressive but he endorses the aforementioned Omaha mayor and considers him to be progressive despite his stance on abortion.

    This is a quote from Sanders:
    And yet, he says he still isn't a Democrat.

    I don't really think that's making the party grow or helping broadening the support.

    And has he handed his email list over to the Democrats yet?
     
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  16. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Some of this is that asking for purity tests and demonizing those who fail them is common on the far-right and far-left. So now Sanders has failed the purity test for some. This makes him evil.

    OTOH, there is more to it than that because abortion is a hot-button issue in and of itself. But this eating our own phenomena is not new.

    If they do this, they will die. I will not be a party to such a view.

    However, I don't think they will. I think Sanders is a charismatic guy who has an enthusiastic following that the Dems want to harness and so they are giving him a loose reign and trying to work with him. But there is no way he's going to take over the party and bend it to his vision of things not only because people who see things as he does are the minority in both the party and the world, but also because he's not good that sort of thing.

    It does seem like the DNC has grabbed a tiger by the tail and they may want to rethink that IMO.

    The GOP has shown quite clearly that they will say anything and do anything and that they will find a way to spin what the Dems do to show it in a negative light. I waste no energy worrying about how they will respond to any messages of the DNC and definitely don't advocate twisting ourselves in knots to avoid their negative messages towards us.

    There are definitely issues where the party would be better served taking a softer stance. Gun control springs to mind. There are definitely parts of the country where it doesn't play well and it's not like the issue has no nuances. Abortion is not one of those issue however. It's one thing to say individual Democrats can be anti-choice and they won't get kicked out of the party. It's another to say that the Democratic party's platform does not include fighting for women's reproductive rights.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 9:27 PM
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  17. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Okay I finally had time to read this and I have to say that it very much expresses my own POV when it comes to Sanders. I went from planning to vote for him in the primary to pretty much hating his guts and not respecting him over the course of the election and mostly because of the kinds of things that the article points out.
     
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  18. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Mine, as well.
    He fanned public "distrust" of HRC with his rhetoric; thereby "encouraging" votes for Trump.
     
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  19. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Holding Alex Johnson's Pineapple

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    @BlueRidge the other candidate for mayor is worse. So while I'm not happy with Mello's stance on abortion, he is pro LGBT rights and I think that is more important in a mayoral race. There isn't much he can do as mayor about abortion, imho.
     
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  20. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Can a party maintain credibility though if the local politician takes a different stance on certain issues? Unless someone has expressed their differing stance for a while and I know that this politician is actually aware to the community's needs and has expressed that to be the case over a period of time, I, myself, would probably think that it's just campaign talk and there's nothing sincere about it, especially when the party this politician belongs to has a different stance.

    I think this would be a very hard thing to juggle and a very fine line to walk.
     
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  21. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    It's actually considered a virtue here. Remember, there really are only two parties. So no one is going to agree 100% with their party's platform. Someone who agrees with most of it but differs on a few items is considered "their own man" rather than a "party shill."
     
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  22. topaz

    topaz Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I am so tired of the falsehood that Bernie Sanders fanned the falsehood about HRC. Clinton supporters can not seem to understand that many progressives were not happy with Clinton before the primaries started. Heck, many progressives weren't happy with her prior to her announcing her candidancy. I've believed she's been calculating and corrupt for a while. Heck Krystal Ball who "admires and respects her" in 2014 stated on air on MSNBC before she was fired, "Hillary Dont' Run".

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...krystal_ball_to_hillary_clinton_dont_run.html

    Folks upset about Bernie supporting an anti choice candidate, yet many supported a pro fracking, pro US aggression, pro big corporate lobbyist donations candidate without much reservations about HRC stances on those issues. It was accepted and downplayed. And yes, for the record I do not support anti choice candidates, at all, never regardless. To quote Harriet "Minty" Tubman's character on the TV series Underground "Aint' no negotiations in freedom".

    I'd like to point out that the Trump's recent aggressive stance towards Syria and North Korea are the EXACT SAME stances as HRC. In fact, we'd see a lot more aggression. Especially towards Russia and Syria. We'd be in all out war with Russia right now based. Her policies and stances on the Ukraine and the freaking "ready to go" arsenal on the border of the Ukraine is known and pushed by HRC as the SOS. Hell, she supported the extension of the Patriot act.

    BTW, the democratic party does not have any crediblity with the majority of american people. The left is ONLY thing keeping the democractic party from being obsolete. The DLC and centrist dems haven't been the ones organizing the resistance. They're not ones forcing the candidates at the town halls to answer to their constituents. The recent town hall with Diane Feinstein, who is overstayed her time and completely out of touch with the mood the country. The video of her most recent town hall was pathetic, her answers(avoidance) to questions was painful to watch. Her tweets about drugs is so outdated and false, it's on par with Jeff Sessions. She said something about "flavoring drugs" like cocaine and Meth to appeal to children is just completely nonsense. WTH?

    Dianne Feinstein is 83 years old, she's overstayed her welcome and she's hinting she'll run for re election. I'd be highly surprised if Dianne Feinstein is not primaried by more left leaning candidates.


    http://www.sanjoseinside.com/2017/04/21/op-ed-its-time-for-senator-dianne-feinstein-to-retire/
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017 at 11:45 AM
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  23. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I wasn't sure where to post this but didn't want to start a whole thread on it. I think it's useful information as we fight to turn various legislative bodies blue.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/...phabet-soup-of-Democratic-Party-organizations

    I'd be surprised but I would also be happy if she didn't run for re-election.
     
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  24. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    I attended Vancouver's March for Science. 2000 people, I think? We even had our own slam poet!
     
  25. Meredith

    Meredith what a glorious day!

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    Great turnout in Vancouver!

    ETA that photos indicate quite a turnout throughout the world. Love the signs!
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017 at 12:05 AM
  26. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I just came back from the one in Livermore. It's a science town and I wanted something smaller. I'm not sure how many we had. Probably hundreds. And a Dalek.
     
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  27. Artistic Skaters

    Artistic Skaters Drawing Figures

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    The rain held off. We had thousands. Filled the statehouse lawn.
     
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  28. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    The news are reporting that Germany had a turn-out of about 37,000. About 11,000 in Berlin.
     
  29. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    This article in the New York Times says that Mello has stated that though he is personally opposed to abortion, as mayor he will uphold a woman's right to choose. That's certainly good enough for me. But I don't really think any of this is about this particular candidate. I do think it was a major mistake for Bernie Sanders to make supporting a candidate who has been criticized on this issue a major deal. I don't think Democrats should never support candidates who aren't fully on board on abortion rights, in the cases where they would still be the best candidate in the race.

    But there's good reason a big deal is being made out of this one when you have statements like this:

    That quote should say that "they should know that the foundation of that has to be economic issues as defined by straight white males." Its beyond ridiculous to treat abortion rights as a "cultural issue" as the NY Times writer does. Control over one's reproductive life is not a negotiable issue for women, even if some women would negotiate it away for some other women.

    Right now we're not seeing backsliding on LGBT rights as far as I know. But if the party backslides on women's rights, I have to wonder when it would find it convenient to at least downplay LGBT rights because our rights are not "an economic issue" for straight white men.

    Thankfully for all of us who are "diverse" the abortion rights movement led by NARAL and Planned Parenthood aren't going to be shunted aside in the party.

    But when prominent party members can say crap like the following, there's reason to worry:

    WHOSE economic opportunity? If you trample my rights as a woman or a lesbian you're going to tell me that's not going to impact my economic opportunity? Identity politics is here code for straight white males representing the norm (and thus have no "identity") any deviation from that norm is an "identity" and a diversion from "economics."

    They better start developing some fresh thinking on this.

    This is how the New York Times article characterizes it:

    Cultural catechism. :huh: What bull shit.
     
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  30. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I read this opinion earlier https://rewire.news/ablc/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-no-revolution-reproductive-rights/ and it reminded me of this:
    Sure, Sanders also said that calling for punishing women for abortion was shameful. Still, he did say that there are more important issues the media should pay attention to. So, is it really a surprise that someone who thinks that minimum wages and climate change and taxes are more important than women's rights is making a big deal out of supporting a candidate like Mello?
    There is no doubt that both minimum wages and climate change and taxes are important issues but more important? I don't think so.
     
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