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Watching old tapes: today- mens fs Salt Lake City 2002

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SmallFairy, Apr 16, 2011.

  1. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

    I am a born and raised citizen of the USA, and I would have been perfectly delighted with a Russian 1-2-3 at the SLC games. I know.....but, personally, it would have prefered it.
  2. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

    Absolutely !!!

    ... if you have quads, brilliant skating skills, unbeatable confidence, musculinity, super command of ice, charisma, a big nose and not the nose only, you can try to please people too if it is that easy as you say. :shuffle:
  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Thank you for posting this link! I'm not sure that I had ever seen him skate before. Skorniakov and his wife, Tatiana Malinina, trained under the same coach, Igor Ksenofotov. After Ksenofotov died in an accident, the couple trained each other. The similarity between the two skaters' styles is striking.
  4. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Nah, I thought at the time that fifth place was exactly right for that short program, and I haven't changed my mind. Should I go back to the SP thread and explain my reasoning?

    There's room for disagreement, but please don't tell me you're sure I agree with you.
  5. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Agree 100%. I hated *both* of Yag's Olympic programs (yes Winter too. Especially Winter, actually). MITIM felt like a retread of Gladiator, except without the good parts. It's my least favorite LP he's done as a senior, other than the sloppy Carmen FS from way back when he skated in seniors in 96-97. Even the Sviridov mishmash Mishin did for him in 98 or the "thrown together at the last second Tosca" LP from 2000 are better than MITIM.

    "Broken Arrow" is my favorite Yag's program by far, so of course it's the one that got the cold shoulder from the judges. :blah:
  6. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent


    You thought a clean, interesting program deserved to be placed behind a fall?
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I thought that taking all elements and all presentation criteria into account, Plushenko started with a higher base mark than Abt. Then I subtracted 0.4 deduction for Plushenko's fall and maybe 0.2 deductions for Abt, and Plushenko still came out ahead. When I get a chance I'll give details in the SP thread.
  8. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Thanks. I agree with this post. Alexei's 2002 performance has always been talked about as ultimate men's performance but I always found it kind of underwhelming. I loved his Gladiator (2000 Skate Canada) and Lawrance of Arabia (1999 Worlds) a lot more.

    Also totally agree about A/P and Honda's programs to MITIM. Honda musicality really shined in that program and it was a lot more heart felt than Alexei's IMO.
  9. senorita

    senorita New Member

    I love LOVE Yags broken arrow as his best ever program :)
  10. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

    I think I first fell in love with Alexei for his Lawrence of Arabia. I am old enough to remember the movie coiming out...and beautiful young Peter O'Toole, and that glorious music! I was VERY young, but it made an impression. That is one perfect program...I was entranced, although possibly "softened up" before hand.
  11. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

    ^ Lawrence of Arabia is my favorite long program of Alexei's too. Overall I have enjoyed his Olympic eligible programs more than his professional ones 9an exception being "Racing" - I love that one).
  12. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy #teamtrainwreck #vladmorosovsfreckles #teamjapan

    I loved Broken Arrow too!! The music was awsome, and he expressed it so well!
    I was really sad he changed it for worlds, stupid judges didn't "get it" or "recieve it well" ?!? go back to your rocks!!
    (btw in Tosca, a lot of Broken Arrow moves appeared, very funny lol)

    I love all Yagudins eligable programs, and have a hard time ranking them, but I agree MITIM was not his best. I loved the total package of emotions, program and technique in Salt Lake, but my ultimate dream would have been if he had won Olympics with Gladiator!!
    I can't believe he never won a major title with Gladiator, it's my definitely my favourite program of his, at Euros in Bratislava the audience went mad for him after he finished, that program had everything. Makes me shiver just thinking about it!

    It's really hard to say what program of his that comes second or third or fourth....Circus, LoA, Nutrocker, Broken Arrow, Winter....the were all so freakin GOOD!!!
    (and no, I have not forgotten One Banana lol lol)
  13. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    See, the problem I have with this is (and this is regardless of who is skating) a fall is a MAJOR mistake. I don't think the penalties for falling are harsh enough. I will always believe that Plushy should have been at least fifth after the SP in SLC (although it must be said that the recovery was flawless - he still fell, and on the hardest combination jump, too). Likewise I will always believe that it should have been completely impossible for Patrick Chan to win Skate Canada with four falls. I just don't think that falls are penalised hard enough.

    I must go look it up - I think I actually may not have watched that. I always seem to discover a program every so often that I haven't seen before. I recall seeing the costume and I loved its simplicity.

    (Racing was actually his 2002-2003 SP - he performed it at Skate Canada before withdrawing before the LP ;)) But I agree. I do prefer his eligible skates. We should find a way to give him bionic hips and send him back to eligible competition... Plushy would love it! :cool:
  14. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

    I like Lawrence of Arabia too. LoA and Gladiator are my favourite programs of Alexei. :swoon:
  15. kia_4EverOnIce

    kia_4EverOnIce Active Member

    I completely fall in love with figure skating (before it was *only* one of my favourites sports) thanks to MITIM, so that's my favourite :)
    I agree that his eligible programs were better than the professionals ones, actually I remember seeing him alive for the first time already in 2006 and I was quite disappointed from his performance (it was wonderful, but I was expecting something more like winter or MITIM or Gladiator...I was quite naive maybe ;) )
  16. Daba

    Daba New Member

    This is my first post here. Hello!
    And I fell in love with fs when I watched Yagudin's Gladiator at Worlds. Yes, he had mistakes, but it was still very impressive.
    manleywoman and (deleted member) like this.
  17. Zokko!

    Zokko! Comansnala?

    Me, too. Oh, I remember that so well. He didn't just interpret-, he really w a s The Gladiator and the audience absolutely went nuts during the last step sequence ... :swoon:

    I think "Gladiator" is my favourite LP, followed by "Lawrence of Arabia". His performance at Worlds 1999 was my initial moment to become a fan. While MITM is not my favourite LP of him either, I still believe it was one of the best male Olympic performances ever ...

    His Sp's were all little story-telling masterpieces, hard to tell which one I prefer. I guess his "Revolution Etude" at Worlds 2001 will always have a special place in my heart. The story behind it, the drama, audience ecstatic again ... :encore:
  18. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Personally, I wouldn't mind if falling meant you got zero points for the skill and a one points falling deduction. That way, a hand touch down or an incorrect entry edge could get -3 GOE etc
  19. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    For Yagudin, I'd having to rank his Tarasova programs (which were all miles better than his Mishin programs) like this:

    1. Circus
    2. Winter
    3. Racing
    4. Nutrocker (although I am still in love with his death drop from worlds)
    5. A black hole
    6. Revolutionary Etude

    1. MITIM (His SLC performance was actually the first time I'd ever seen him skate, and I got into figure skating fairly recently (Some time in 2009), so it will always be my favorite)
    2. Gladiator
    3. Broken Arrow
    4. Tosca
    5. Lawrence of Arabia (I never really liked this one)
  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    If a hand touchdown or incorrect entry edge by themselves get -3, what happens to a jump that has both an incorrect entry AND a hand touchdown?

    What about falls that come at the end of a complex step sequence or spin -- no credit for all the other skills demonstrated in that element before the fall?

    Similarly, what about falling at the end of a quad-triple-double combination? No credit for the quad and the triple that were successfully landed?

    On the other hand, already some elements get so little value after a -3 GOE reduction (e.g., a downgraded double axel) that the net result after the fall deduction is already negative points for the element. So at novice and lower levels, the current penalties discourage risk taking.

    The real debate is over whether risk taking (triple axels, quads, etc.) should be encouraged or discouraged at the elite levels. They keep tinkering with the penalties. Should a fall on a (rotated, or almost rotated) quad attempt, for example, result in negative net points? Exactly zero? A small positive amount? As much as or more than a mediocre triple? Every time they change the rules, some groups are always dissatisfied with the results.

    Here's an interesting discussion that might be worth reviving, but I think the question needs to be looked at in broader terms of how it affects the whole sport, not in reaction to one specific skater or competition.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2011
  21. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

    No. It was at Skate America where Yagudin debuted Racing and then had to withdraw before the LP.
    I was there and was :wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed
    LynnW and (deleted member) like this.
  22. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    Circus and A Black Hole...what were these ones? Or are these another bunch of ones that get called half a dozen different names? ;)

    Encourage them to take the risk - but they have to be able to land it. I'm sick to death of these skaters who can land their 4Ts or 3As properly getting medals even when they fall. Yeah yeah whatever, call me a Chan hater but the number of medals he has from this season is CRIMINAL. What are we saying with the current rules - you don't have to land it, you can Zamboni the ice with your butt, and we'll still let you win? It's a joke, an absolute joke, and insulting to the skaters that CAN land/perform these skills and yet are ranked behind the human Zambonis. Like Oda at SC.

    Whoops, sorry. Same continent, wrong country.
  23. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    So do you want a quad to be worth 15 points when landed and 0 when not landed? What about a 2 footed one? One with a step out? If you want to encourage them to take the risk, you are going to have to reward credible attempts. And no one will go for a quad if a flawed one is going to be worth much less than say, a 3lutz.

    Instead of whining on empty, why don't you propose how the rules / values should be changed? :)
  24. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    I think each jump should have a base value, like they do now. So, a quad toe = 15 points (or whatever they decide it should be).

    I think you should lose, say, a half of the score for a two-foot/hand down (suddenly only worth 7.5 points), two-thirds for a step out (5 points), and a flat 0 for a fall.

    With combinations, it gets harder, but I think you should only lose the value of the jump you fluff (so if you do 3A-3T but step out of the 3T, you lose the appropriate value of the 3T).

    A fall on a step sequence should mean an automatic drop in the level awarded that sequence - for example, if your steps would have been a level 4, but you fall, then it should be a level 3.
  25. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

    I would never call you a Chan hater! :) I adore Chan's skating. But I totally agree about his results. However, if we want to put the "hate" out on anybody, let it be the system and the judges. Patrick went out and skated his best. It's the judges that gave him the points.
  26. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    And if a 4toe is to be 15 points, how many points will you give a clean 3lutz?
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Oh yes, Lawrence of Arabia was splendid. And Racing was very special, and you can add it in his competitive programs list, because it was his 2002-2003 SP ;)
  28. nanigirl

    nanigirl Member

    Circus was the sp where his costume had a mime mask on it and red and yellow shredded fabric. In his choreography, he was playing with a ball. I can't think of which one is A Black Hole....
  29. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Circus is the 1999 worlds SP. I don't know what a black hole is
  30. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    I would denote clean 3A as 13 points, so clean 3Lz would be 11. But as I said, the ISU would probably give them something different.

    I found Circus the other day on Youtube...I think I'm traumatized :yikes: