1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi all! No longer will threads be closed after 1000 (ish) messages. We may close if one gets so long to cause an issue and if you would like a thread closed to start a new one after a 1000 posts then just use the "Report Post" function. Enjoy!

Virtue and Moir #30 - Labour of Love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by MissJD, Sep 13, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. CatherineC

    CatherineC Active Member

    The second one (cover B) :)
  2. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    Who is C/B? Chock Bates?
  3. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    Did I say C/B? :duh: Opps I meant C/P I still can't keep up with all these new couples :scream: :(
  4. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

  5. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    It was Dean choreo and Porie did this lift with Crone too.
  6. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

    I only see one lift in their program that has been done before and that is the curve lift. But rarely has it looked as good as V&M make it look. ;)

    As for your second sentence. I disagree. Sure there are things to be worked on/ironed out (like the ending, for example), but this is a beautiful program and I suspect something that the ISU judges have asked them to do. Listen to what Tracy Wilson says at this beginning of this:

    She basically says that with this Carmen routine not everyone likes it, some love it, some don't and that some people want to see them do the soft romantic thing. I'm sure the judges told V&M to go back to this style. An Olympic year is not a year to do something avant garde or risky. Anyway, when I watch this Carmen program, as much as I love it, I think that their speed and ice coverage is FAR superior in this year's program. And they are very frequently in a closed hold in this program which I love. I was reading a blog and someone posted this:

    D/W's FD: Skate apart and pose, pose, pose, closed hold, open hold, lift, pose, open hold, pose, pose, spin, pose, lift, open hold, pose, open hold, pose, pose, etc.

    V/M's FD: closed hold, closed hold, closed hold, lift, closed hold, closed hold, open hold, closed hold, spin, closed hold, open hold, closed hold, lift, etc.

    Pretty apt. That V&M are able to maintain speed and great ice coverage with so much closed-hold skating and hardly any cross-cuts is very impressive. I also noticed how often Scott is only one foot.

    I think I can see the storyline here. The beginning part is their career starting out, then the couple of times the music changes to something faster and almost furious sounding, those are the parts of their career when she's been off with surgery etc and then the end is more triumphant finally ending with the 'thank you' pose. It's quite clear to me but I could be wrong. I really love how the first rotational lift is timed to the powerful part of the music and how they go bombing down the ice right after doing those waltz moves into the second rotational lift (which sound like will be changed). I also love the choreographed section before the dance spin. I can't wait to see what this will look like come Jan/Feb.
  7. ceg15

    ceg15 Member

    I had the exact same interpretation as you Rafter, I'm glad that someone else sees it as well :)

    I feel one of the upbeat sections could represent 2008 Worlds silver, because it's like they had finally 'arrived.'

    And the idea of seasons works as well...so there are two layers to this program, if not more! -- only Tessa and Scott are capable of this kind of complexity!
  8. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    This. I am not sure about overall ice coverage? But for sure there speed in FD atthis point of season already better and they skated easy, then last season at GPF.
    Yes, Carmen have more complex moves nd choreo. But judges want to see speed, easy and light skating.
  9. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

  10. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

    Me too! :) And it actually accepted my American address!
  11. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Cover A, because I think it will sell better. Although, where is the cover with just Scott? :p
  12. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

    It is great to visit this thread and get enthused again. I will admit I have still felt somewhat hung over from last season. I viewed Carmen as such a masterpiece that I could not conceive of them skating it well and receiving anything else but top marks. I have questioned skating results a few times before - both at the local level and international - but I have never felt as totally bewildered by the sport I love and it made me question whether I understood ice dance at all. I thank all of you for your input and ideas and great contributions to this thread. I have booked my ticket to Canadians and can hardly wait to see Tessa and Scott live again. I will actually be on a ship in the Caribbean when the Olympics take place and maybe that is a good place for me to be - distracted. I love their programs this year and plan not to venture into any garbage thrown their way. I want to savour every moment of this year!
  13. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Welcon back!
    Look, like this will be group of VM fans at Nationals. Great!
  14. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    I have to disagree. Like chantilly, this is the first year that I find myself unenthused by D&W's programs. Their SD is really lacking in actual dance, and it seems to move from one end of the arena to the other, built to gain speed and momentum. They lack swing and sway in their movements. They have a lovely little quickstep sequence immediately following the Finnstep that works nicely to transition the compulsory pattern into the rest of the dance that I wish they would extend because it is the only time we see them continuously dancing, imo. And I still really like their SS but I would like to see them skate into and out of it.
    I think their FD has a beautiful opening and I really like the choreographic lift and beginning and ending poses, and I love that we are seeing more stretch as well as a sustained edge in Meryl's exit position from lifts, but I am not seeing enough variation in the transitions and I want to see more changes of direction, one-foot skating and sustained movement. Also, like Rafter has pointed out, there is a lot of room between them throughout the program (compare especially the distance between their blades and that between V's and M's blades in step sequences as well as the choreography).

    I have already said a lot about V&M's SD but I would also like to point out how interesting their pattern is. They move inward, curve around and move outward again in sections. They don't continue a straighter path throughout the program to gain or maintain speed and momentum. And in their FD, not only are they both constantly changing direction but they are often doing it on one foot. have picked out a few moments to illustrate this from just the beginning of their program (I could find numerous examples throughout).

    Have a look at this nice set of turns (thanks for the link to this video, Braulio :) ):


    And then moments later, Tessa changes direction on one foot, coming through the space between them and remaining on one foot in her new direction. While she does this, Scott bends his knee and changes feet, rising on the ball of the new skating foot. Look at how detailed that one moment is. This stuff blows me away.


    And just moments after this, they do a mini lift and Tessa comes down, stays on one foot and changes direction (still on one foot) while comfortable in Scott’s arm:


    And then watch Tessa turn counter-clockwise on her right foot and orient her body towards the right, then bring her weight back quickly to turn clockwise on her left foot:


    This is shared difficulty, management of space, multidirectional skating, flow, power, numerous changes of hold--everything the rule book is asking for yet it is so much more than that. The emotional complexity of this program is just...I don't have the words.

    btw, nice to see you posting again jtpc and ddtpdx!

    marikat, I am so happy you got to meet them and get a picture with them! thanks you so much for providing your impressions from the event--I sure have enjoyed reading them. and thank you pani for your reports. I am so happy you got to attend this event and watch the debut of this very special program.

    And thank you everyone for providing your thoughts on these new programs as well as links and translations.
  15. Jeanne7

    Jeanne7 Active Member

    BKfan! Thank you SO much -- you are very knowledgeable & I loved the way you break down small move. I learn something new in every one of your posts. The more I view their FS the more I adore it & see all its nuances ...c'est magnifique :)
  16. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your good wihes, BKFan......am hobbling very nicely now.
  17. Lety

    Lety Member

    Thank you for the post Bournekraatzfan. It is always incredibly nice to read what you write, I have learned much from your posts and with all who share their knowledge here. It is a pleasure to review the program after reading your posts, noticing the details and seeing the beauty of Tessa & Scott's programs in a deeper way.
  18. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

    I hope Skate Canada will go to bat for them, unlike last year.
  19. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    puglover -- you are going to Canadians again! Wonderful news!!!! as I am going as well. Got my hotel booked and tickets picked out. We'll have to meet up!

    OK, back to V/M ... and I am loving their SD and FD a little more each time I view them. I'm so looking forward to seeing the changes to their dances -- especially the FD -- by the time I get to Kanata (aka Ottawa).
  20. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    We should plan a VM fan get together. I intend wearing my yellow shirt!
  21. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

    Wow - great to hear you are going again professordeb - we will definitely have to get together. I also would love to attend a VM fan get together.
  22. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    I too found the music jarring and felt it interrupted the flow and fluidity of the dance. I really enjoyed the short slow section, but the dance just didn't mesmerize me from start to finish as past programs have. Some of the lifts were sensational, but the same can be said of D&W.

    I am a definite V&M uber and would really like to see them win their second Olympic gold. But I've felt that the fix was in after last year, when the judges responded to Carmen as they did. Even in that case, I could justify V&M's coming second at Worlds, because that dance was a little rough around the edges. OTOH, I couldn't understand their winning with Funny Face - that year I thought D&W skated a masterpiece and would have given them the title.

    I really want to be wrong about the fix, but V&M's marks give me reason to doubt. I'm wondering whether Skate Canada is focusing on a (clean) Chan for gold in men's, in exchange for supporting D&W for gold?

    I'm not a conspiracy theorist and would like to be wrong, though. And to be fair, I haven't seen D&W's programs yet.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  23. munow

    munow New Member

    "Rough around the edges" effectively describes all of "their" skating.

    V/M won in 2012 because they are better skaters and dancers. They show superior skating every time they are on ice.
  24. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member


    My jaw hit the floor. I mean, we know Tessa is a beautiful girl but that cover is beyond. Since V&M are a team then the cover should be the both of them but just on the basis of the picture that jumped out at me, I could see why the Tessa only cover was one of the options. Stunning.

    I'm up too late as it is so I'll be back tommorow but I must be missing something on how CoP is supposed to be judged. Or somebody is. I didn't find V&M's performance of Carmen at Worlds rough around the edges at all. There were a couple of perhaps rough moments; small miscues/bobble's if that's what you want to call them. However, while those errors may have lost V&M points they should have been cancelled out by the points Tessa and Scott should have racked up in the rest of their dance. From the lifts, overall skating skills (we've been through this before), the constant movement leaving very little room to rest, the commitment to the theme of the dance. The fact that V&M are one of the few teams who can maintain speed and the connection with one another (keeping in character) while performing what was IMO the most technically demanding FD of last season. There are other things as well.

    Perhaps throughout the many changes that CoP continues to go through the above is no longer the case? CoP was made to be judged in segments and to rack up points as opposed to 6.0 where everything has to be considered then lumped together to come up with one blanket mark.

    There are so many things in icedance that are in your face and easy to identify even to someone not familiar with it. OTOH, there are those many small subtle intangibles as well that V&M do that keep getting looked over. Things that are just as difficult as the big tricks that the current audiences seem to identify more with.
  25. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    My take on the whole "rough around the edges". The judges have made it clear the last few seasons that V&M must be perfect to beat D&W. Thus we all sit on pins and needles nervously watching their performances praying for perfection.

    Well perfection is unrealistic. The problem is the difference in the way both teams skate. V&M are textbook skaters, smooth, great flow, great edges so the slightest deviation, the most miniscule adjustment is detected. D&W don't hold edges, hop and skip throughout their programs and are often on two feet. That makes it much harder for viewers to detect mistakes because their "style" is to skate choppy and hoppy so when they lose an edge or hit a toepick it's much harder to pick up because their choreography incorporates all these things.

    Whenever I go back and rewatch competitions after having viewed them live I am always surprised myself how much better V&M skated than originally thought. The only difference between the two viewings is the anticipation is no longer a factor, the nerves are gone, I only see the skating. And it's good.
  26. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Just saw K&C video. Maurizio talked about bad position (i think maybe in one of the lifts). And he said TS did there job, but - coaches didnt. So after this competition coaches now see better, what places they need to improve to made all positions and moves perfect.
  27. Lety

    Lety Member


    Yes, I also heard him talking about it :)
    Sometimes (or always) it is necessary to put the programs out to understand what it takes to improve, and now they know what to do to solve what they saw during this competition.
    I can't wait to see how this program will be at the end of this month.
  28. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member


    Often, people want to see more and more and more, because they can always do more. But you can't keep asking an A+ student to meet your expectations because they are yours, and therefore, unrealistic. Why not judge them for what they actually put out on the ice instead of what people (judges included) want them to do? That's the biggest issue here. I've seen many people who aren't big fans of V-M or even indifference to dance in general receive this program much better than some of their biggest fans, because for the former there aren't nerves or anticipation involved, they are simply watching and what they see is brilliant skating; what the latter see is, "what, this? After Carmen?" and they disregard it based on what they CAN do, ignoring what they ARE doing.

    Well, you know what? That's not fair. Not when you know the resume these guys have. They don't need to prove to anyone how versatile they are, they do not owe anything to anyone. Why make demands of them? This is a solid program. Can it get better? Yes. And it will. Stop hurting about Carmen, it got shafted, yes, but that's in the past. Push your own hopes and expectations aside and see this program for what it is.
  29. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Well-Known Member

    I totally agree, Golightly. I love everything they do because of their awesome style, graceful elegance, but especially for the fact that they are so very versatile and willing to go places other skaters can't or wont go. Kudos to them I loved both new dances because they are actually dancing!
  30. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

    Adorable new picture from HPC. X
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.