1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi all! No longer will threads be closed after 1000 (ish) messages. We may close if one gets so long to cause an issue and if you would like a thread closed to start a new one after a 1000 posts then just use the "Report Post" function. Enjoy!

Virtue and Moir 25: Road to home

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    As near as I can tell, it was deleted after a couple people pointed out that being a racist misogynist wasn't a great way to debate (and in fairness, they were called out by D/W fans as well). I'll see if I can find it. Or, you know, not and pretend that it doesn't exist.

    I think Carmen and this SD might be their greatest 1-2 punch since the Olympics if not ever, and I'd be sad if it didn't win in London, though. I really wish I could rewrite history a bit here (and make the completely healthy the post-Olympic season, which I have no doubt they would've won given the way their programs were more immediately successful and the ability to hit levels was quite remarkable all things considered). Because I suspect we're gonna see a thematic/technical retreat next year (a program more easily digestible for audiences; a program that they can peak with earlier and longer) I really want the sheer audacity of this FD rewarded.

    As for the lead/control debate.... honestly, anyone who chooses to frame the debate this way is projecting a little bit. I think Scott definitely takes the lead in interviews and media presence, but I think Tessa's also very adept and interesting in engaging with the media (the Team Orange interviews from TEB 2011 provided terrific insights to how they operate and are being ignored thoroughly by those who prefer to see it as something else). I think Tessa's got a bit of a lead when it comes to music choices, but I doubt they've skated to anything neither has wanted to. I don't know how you can watch their Olympic OD and not see them as anything but equals (the way Tessa says "Ready Freddy" as if to challenge Scott; his full throttled excitement after they finished. Amazing... and I totally need to go watch this dance right now. Twice. Okay back now).

    You know, knowing that Tessa was in pain throughout the Olympic season that they were able to nail this program so entirely really reaffirms just how tough and competitive they were (again, belying anyone who thinks they were bluffing at 4CC).
  2. elle123

    elle123 Member

    I find the notion that they're both being steam-rolled and controlled by each other ridiculous. Partnerships are about compromise, so if maybe Scott wasn't 100% sold on FF (which I have not heard before BTW), he probably realized how much it meant to Tessa and agreed because he trusts and respects her ... like good partners do. Sheesh, some people are so ridiculous. I won't even talk about it anymore because that's probably what they want in the first place and we know these allegations are false so there's no use defending it any further.

    On a more positive note, thanks for all the pics and links, guys! I love seeing Scott and Tessa goofing off/having fun. Sometimes it's really hard to believe they're only 23/25.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  3. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    edit: del
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  4. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

    How long have these two skated together? There is no way they are together that long if one exercises complete control. Just because Tessa is nice doesn't mean she is a pushover. Just because Scott is protective of Tessa doesn't mean he makes all of the decisions. Honestly some folks just want to stir the pot.
  5. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    Aw, thanks Carmen:)
    I, too, am surprised at the things I often see about P&B and their bronze last year and agree that there should be less of a gap between them and the top 2 teams. They are capable of getting their levels, have complex choreography and such solid skating skills. just look at their edges. It is also apparent to me that they really dance. Though I prefer W&P (personal preference--I just love them so much) and think B&S have wonderful material and have made significant improvements to their skating, I still think there is quite a gap between P&B and the teams below them. I really wish they were getting more credit for the difficulty of their programs along with their many other fine qualities. I share your concerns re: their absence at Euros, and am just hoping they will be able to bounce back in time for Worlds. They always peak at the right time, imo, and I hope this injury doesn't throw them off.

    I should add that I recognize the importance of quality in the area of transitions, so I know that polish is important, but at 4CC, V&M's SD looked incredibly polished so I do not understand why/how they were outscored in that category along with a few other PCS categories (though I know that the differences were smalll so the panel was not unanimous in their decision). I am not sure what to make of the FD marks b/c I do suspect, as professordeb noted, that their PCS suffered from the interruption, and I am fine with that for the most part (still puzzled about the transition mark).

    :lol: Bahahahaha!

    Well said, both of you. I am sick of seeing some people take such a patronizing tone when discussing Tessa. Though, as VarBar reminded us, one troll did take pity on Scott for being bullied by Tessa, lol.

    and iNap, you crack me up:lol:
  6. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

    if it was deleted then nm
  7. sequins

    sequins Active Member

    I agree. You can say they weren't deducted for the stop, that it's 'not allowed' to affect the mark but lets be honest how could it not? In the back of the judges minds they had to be thinking if they give them the marks for the win how would that be perceived? Geez they gave them good enough marks as it was and it's still being questioned.

    All this crap/rumours about V/M is beyond vile. I realize there is hate for those that are successful but some of the stuff I've just read here is just beyond. Grow the F*#$ up! What the hell did these 2 ever do to deserve this hateful garbage? Is it any wonder they avoid social media? Also don't recall Scott ever saying he would skate with another partener. Only saw it ever suggested by some on here. I got the impression if Tessa was goin' out he was goin' with her. The way they speak about the injury it's just the impression they leave.

    Anyway really looking forward to seeing the way Worlds is gonna shape up in dance. Not only with V/M D/W but with the return (hopefully) of P/B and W/P. It'll be interesting to see if they lose any ground with the injuries. I hope not cause I love both those teams but I think it's gonna be tough with the Russian teams and Sochi on the horizon.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  8. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    (BKF) caaaalm. One word: education. If you find yourself lucky enough to be a part of a circle of people who are thoughtful, critical thinkers, curious, and exposed to many different types of learning, encounters with bigoted misogynistic racists will and should be a massively repulsive jolt. These horrid encounters just reinforce my own world view, and then I remind myself that I have the power to not make the same choices as them. Online hate? It's way too macro a scope to really do anything about. So try to let it go? And just do your own thang...hope that your voice can get "out there" and helps represent an alternative, and join with others' with like voices so that together you can be louder.
  9. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    Thank, Jess. great advice.

    Honestly, I am involved in anti-oppression work, so I am aware of how pervasive racism and misogyny are, yet it never ceases to shock me when people invoke racist tropes like this. Anyways, I edited my previous post as I realize it is best not to give that comment even more power by reiterating it.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  10. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

  11. martyross

    martyross Well-Known Member

    i pity certain people who feels such inferiority complex toward Tessa's beauty and brilliance.
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Me too ;)
  13. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

  14. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Yes. I gave link to another photo early in this thread.
  15. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

  16. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    pani, you're a treasure! I may not always understand what you are saying, but sometimes you come out with some gems ... and then there's the links to photos. Thanks!
  17. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

  18. IoanaC

    IoanaC Well-Known Member

    "Awesome".:) Scott was a wonderful partner this past weekend. Love him even more for it.
  19. Scrufflet

    Scrufflet Well-Known Member

    Thank you for saying this and being so articulate!
  20. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Thank you so much for this post. You weren't rambling at all.

    I agree with everything you said regarding how PCS/judging is being presently marked and the impact (for the worse, IMO) on future programs. You hit upon pretty much everything that's bugged me about the scoring. There is so much that V/M and P/B (like Carmen Ovsiannikov said, thank you for including P/B in your assessment) do that's either a lot more difficult or a lot more refined than what D/W do, but it's not taken into consideration or ignored in the marks. Once upon a time, all of these things that V/M and P/B do better were highly valued and considered necessary to make it to the top. These days, it seems like rather than being rewarded for fantastic basic skating, line, unison, extension, difficult transitions, skating close together, truly dancing together, etc. etc. etc., the teams that bother tend to end up taking a hit in their scores instead... They're penalized in a way, IMO, for doing the things they should be. I still think there are a lot of politics behind the scoring right now, but if you just look at the message behind how the programs are getting marked, the only things that count are the elements (and not even really how well you do them) and how fast you can race from one to the other. That's not what I was taught and had drummed into my head for years about what good ice dancing is. Good ice dancing is what V/M and P/B do, and it's just not getting rewarded and/or valued right now. Consequently, other teams are going to look at this, and design their programs accordingly. It's such a shame as there are some teams out there (I/K immediately springs to mind) who have the talent and ability to do the kinds of things V/M and P/B do.

    Ice dance is so frustrating to me right now. I feel like everything I was taught over the years to be important is no longer so.
  21. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

    But recently, I've just resigned myself to accepting that this is the current trend and it won't change until at least after Sochi.
  22. martyross

    martyross Well-Known Member

  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

  24. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

    what happened at this years 4cc reminded me so much of this :( http://youtu.be/o2dj8VBEicc
    this is why i dont understand the people who are saying that they only stopped at the middle of the program because they know they couldnt beat d/w or some shit like that
    some people are incorrigible
  25. elle123

    elle123 Member

    Just when you thought you couldn't love him/them anymore. Even though what happened at 4CC was very unfortunate, I think it goes to show what an amazing partnership that they have together and what amazing fans they have. I'm proud of us collectively for focusing on the positive rather than the negative (for the most part ;) ) and I'm sure Tessa and Scott would be overwhelmed with all the support we give, even if she'll never hear it firsthand.

    Here's hoping they find a big fat bubble to stay in together til worlds where no one can touch them :)
  26. elle123

    elle123 Member

    sigh Love that serpentine lift! I wish we could've seen those programs in a year where Tessa wasn't recovering from surgery.
  27. martyross

    martyross Well-Known Member

    yea, please guys, don't add "sorry for rambling", "sorry for the rant" so often, for in the 99,999% of cases ( :D ) there's nothing to apologize for!
    we shouldn't be afraid to not say "the right thing", whatever this means. And this thread is currently "The" ice dance thread of FSU and this thanks also
    to your long analysis and observations.

    I finally got the chance to watch both teams at 4CC (I have no speed internet where I'm staying) and, regarding the difference between the top 3 couples, which is reflected in their skating, I think it's basically a difference of cultural background. D/W, as someone pointed out in the past, are not "dancing" as V-M do. Actually I think Team DW has invented a new kind of skating, which is not "dancing" in the traditional sense, but neither pair skating or "double single skating". It's something that somewhat combine the 3 of them and plus, adds a typical American type of show which is the musical. Their programs are all very theatrical, with the only exception of the Tango FD. But theatrical in the sense of the musical, that was born in 20th century thus has all the typical features of this age. It's a rather artificial form of art, influenced by cinema, vaudeville, popular music etc, that takes elements of the tradition and see them through a modern or post-modern filter. Evident case in DW, the Bollywood OD, indian dance and culture seen from a Western point of view. Think also of "West side story", which could be an other good theme for them. It's Romeo and Juliet seen from a modern American point of view, isn't it?
    Other than this syncretism, the musical is based on "colorfoul" entertainement with simple storylines and simple, sometimes stereotypical characters.
    I think all that I said can be applied to Davis and White's style. In some way, they even embody the American style of single skating, which is explosive, athletic, extrovert, often theatrical. You can see this even in Gymnastic (the opposition between American and Russian school).
    In DW case, what you see is what you get. In their FD's, besides, they tend to express emotional outbursts (i.e., pop music), more than feelings (classical music).
    one of the reasons why Davis and White are so loved in their country, is that they embody American culture, so the audience unconsciously see the reflection of their background in them. Culture is everything!
    I don't think I'm offending Davis and White if I say that Tessa and Scott's skating has more depth, in the sense that you feel there's something beyond
    their movements, something that misteriously reach our intellectual sphere and aechstetic perception. Needless to say, they are more "European", a certain vein of European culture, the nostalgic and contemplative elegance, the loyalty to tradition. All this comes from Zoueva's influence, of course, but
    mainly from their own personalities I think, and especially from Tessa, whom I consider "the second choreographer" of the team. the mark of her exquisite taste and brilliant intelligence is evident in each of their programs. I want to add, after watching Carmen at 4cc, that she is not only an extraordinary beautiful and smart woman, she's also one of the bravest and strongest athlete I've ever known.
    Pechalat-Bourzat, well, they're French :) if you see some movies from France or take a look at some dress shops in Paris, you'll understand why they are so original, sharp, sometimes bizzarre in chosing their themes. It's part of their background too. Throughout the 20th century, France was avant-garde in many branches of culture and arts. the French have a special tendency of seeing reality from a sharp, sarcastic, non-romantic and often pessimistic point of view.
    I know I've simplified much and maybe in the future I'll add more precise remarks about this subject :)
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  28. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Thanks for this. I hate that you can tell that Tessa had been crying earlier at the beginning of video (and I wonder what Scott was saying to her). BTW the commentators sure had a lot to say, what were they saying?

    Also I concur there's no rambling that I see here, just interesting conversations. So everybody continue "rambling."
  29. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Huh? How can you even tell she was crying?

    Scott says "awesome" or something like it at the end.