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Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    I'm also okay with this. I think D&W skated the lights out at NHK and deserved the score given the competition (97 for I/K?? :lol:)

    I will start worrying if V/M and D/W are both clean at GPF and D/W outscore V/M substantially. Tessa and Scott really need to hit those levels!
  2. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    I didn't see I-K, but that seems rather high. Any improvements?

    Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2
  3. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    I'm cool with it :)

    Thanks for importing Staviyski's comments on VM Cherub. I love hearing feedback, ANY feedback be it positive or not, from skaters and coaches. It's a different kind of insight. VM sure seem to have some fans that are the Russian "greats"...Zhulin, Krylova, Tarasova, who else...
  4. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Meryl and Charlie get on 5 points better with the same levels only in FD. V-M never skate clean, all know about this. M-C get so many 10th, hope at GPF they will have all 10. :swoon: V-M could only show romantic connection - thats all. Maeryl-Charlie made all elements far better and they work SO hard.
    This is best day for ice dance.
  5. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    You are wrong. Russian LOVE Meryl and Charlie. TAT want to send letter to ISU after last season WCh. Krylove spend a lot of time with Meryl in Nice. They all said after FD during friend meeting Meryl-Charlie must won WCh.
    How could you tell this? All understand M-C are far better
  6. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

    I think it's a shame that it's gotten to the point that trying to objectively critique something about D&W should be considered controversial. I've said before (I'm not the only one) that with other teams (V&M included) it is okay to discuss the good, the bad and everything in between but for some reason in this quadrennial D&W are off limits unless it's praise.

    While I think pani can go a little OTT at times I get where she is coming from. At times there does seem to be the feeling that the judges and others are holding them up as being unbeatable (I'll probably get creamed for that) while the other teams including Scott and Tessa have to be at 200% at all times in order to get the marks they need/deserve. Or at least at times it seems that way.

    I do actually really like D&W's SD this season which is a pleasant surprise for me. I haven't been able to jump onboard with some D&W praise since the Bollywood OD. Now Giselle IMHO certainly isn't on the same level as Bollywood creatively but it is good. Very charming and I feel D&W/Marina found another vehicle that showcases D&W's strengths while making a program that looks like more than another technical excersize with bland choreography.

    That said I agree with you that Giselle is beatable. I realize that style wise some may prefer the more rousing, fast paced programs that D&W are good at but that doesn't mean that V&M's Waltz isn't a standout in it's own right. I love the Waltz SD from V&M just as much as Carmen and the mood it sets while still having loads of great movement. Like Carmen, there is just so much to look at; very few open spaces and many gorgeous highlights. Once V&M become more comfortable with their programs I still feel that this season they are the top team. Or should be. I realize others feel differently and that is okay too.

    IMO this is what D&W excel at and when I step aside from critiquing Giselle as a competitive piece I really like and enjoy watching it.

    But again like you, I have a slight preference for V&M's Waltz. Both of V&M's programs have so much more to them than being almost all about being excellent technicians which they are that as well. I find that sometimes when two teams are competing against one another, if one team is seen as the technicians then the other is instantly labeled the artists. I remember that happened with the N&K and DenStavs rivalry as well.

    There have been a few teams who are both and V&M like DenStavs are one of those teams. They might not be quite as fast as D&W but they really aren't that much slower either. V&M's programs also have had just as much difficulty as those of D&W.

    Scott and Tessa have really outdone themselves this season and I want to see their programs skated the way we know they can skate them. I realize this may take until the end of the season to happen especially with the difficulty packed within both programs and after last season, we've seen that it probably won't hurt V&M if they don't win the GPF title but I admit that I want that for them. Purely on a selfish fan level. It's the one major title Tessa and Scott don't have yet. If the Waltz and Carmen can't win them that title, I don't know what will.

    I do agree though that with D&W, they show up at the beginning of the season looking so well trained that they seem to peak earlier. The difference between them at the beginning and end of the season isn't as drastic as it is for V&M or even a team like P&B. There isn't much more D&W can do except fine tune what they have and just keep skating clean.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  7. IoanaC

    IoanaC Well-Known Member

    Can't say I'm "okay", but I did expect it. To be fair, they skated that program with tons of energy.
    I completely resent the fact that, even with a polished "Carmen", the two FDs will still be close in scores. But, as Tessa said after WTT... "that's figure skating".;)

    Pani, deep breaths and take it easy.:D Looong way to go until London.

    Agreed with your whole post.
    Tessa and Scott have a bit less speed, but more amplitude and better ice coverage. When you watch them live, it's absolutely obvious. Not to mention finishing every move - but we know that doesn't count for much anymore.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  8. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    Does anyone have any ideas as to why this is? I get the same feeling too. I'm not super studied up on the break down of PCS, but shouldn't line/toe point/finished movement be covered under at least one of those categories? Moving to all disciplines now, I'm constantly surprised by how the judges aren't reflecting floppy form and throwaway movements in their PCS. Are SS just all about speed?
  9. IoanaC

    IoanaC Well-Known Member

    Those things you list should be covered under the SS requirements, theoretically: "elegant and precise steps/turns". And under PE: "elegant/sophisticated style", "refined line of body and limbs". I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.:)
    The word "form" isn't mentioned anywhere in the criteria.
  10. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    I cant breaths and take it easy after i see the best of the best in the history.
    FD even better, then SD - they get seven 10th. Jusat amazing.
    V-M choreo and interpretation is so bad compare to this.
    I dont care about London - all understand, Meryl it... Dancers like her was born one time in 1000 years. But i am so happy i will see all 10th in GPF for best ever.
    The only questing - nobody care what you skate, but more care about how you do this. So i cant understand why Virtue with all her health problems try to skate Carmen, when full of health best ice dance team in history didnt try to show nothinbg even close to this. And this made them look so much better!
    Party for everybody, dance :sheep:
  11. skatefan

    skatefan home in England


    :rolleyes: :yawn:
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Settle down Pani..:lol:........Tessa and Scott are working on their extra points as we speak, and we are going to see something very different by the end of the season :). My concern is marking for I/K with that crappy program. Are the judges on crack?

    I stand by my original opinion...that Tessa and Scott's "Carmen" is a masterpiece of a program, and that it will be skated to it's potential eventually, and when it is, there will be some huge scores. Don't forget, that program was totally revamped just before the season began and is extremely difficult.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Thanks for the responses, Cherub and Carmen O. Some thoughts

    1. I cannot divorce the artistic from the technical side of things. To me, COP dance is amazing because it needs to be both. And I read so many comments of the "well, technical side wasn't as good, but the artistry was amazing" as if it's okay that the technical side wasn't there. To me that is like praising a meal despite tasting awful because it looked great on the plate, you know?

    2. I definitely understand people loving the best of 6.0 dance: A/P, G/P, K/O, U/Z, K/P. But these teams were also staggeringly technical as well - G/P's running edges, K/O's skating skills, K/P's complicated choreography. When watching these ice dancers, I get the feeling that figure skating influences them just as much as ballroom. Whereas you watch Lobacheva/Averbukh’s OD and the feeling I get is that the ice is simply unnecessary (though FP/M 2000’s OD was terrific). But more than that, ballroom isn’t the only “authentic” dance style.

    Since we’re talking about programs, let’s pick the last Olympic season under 6.0: Salt Lake. To me. The only truly great ice dance program was A/P’s Flamenco OD. Amazing. But nothing else even comes remotely close to that magnificence. There are entertaining dances (B/K, D/V, DenStav all had fun FDs, N/K’s OD was quite good, I felt) but in terms of being actual great programs.... nah. The season before? How many? Maybe A/P’s Beethoven FD. Of course, mileage may vary (for example, I maintain that Lobacehva/Averbukh’s Olympic FD was terrible), but I simply don’t remember these days as being the bastion of great dances. And really, greatness by definition is rare. So if we get two or three FDs that earn a spot on the permanent rotation, I’m happy with that. And we have, imo.

    1997/98: G/P’s “Memorial,” K/O’s “Carmen,” A/P’s “Romeo and Juliet”
    2007/2008: DelScho’s “The Piano,” DomShabs “Masquerade Waltz,” and V/M’s “Umbrellas of Cherbourg”

    Some seasons are definitely stronger than others

    3. I’d love to know what “lower ranked” means. Out of the top five/six? Because I’d argue that Crone/Poirier’s “Eleanor Rigby,” Ralph/Hill’s Tango, Samuelson/Bates Sailor OD, Bobrova/Soloviev’s Russian Sailor OD (heh), Chock/Zuerlein’s “Cabaret,” Capellini/Lanotte’s “Requiem for a Dream,” Hurtado/Diaz’ “Nine”... all are enjoyable programs, some even something more. One thing about praising the lower ranked skaters of the past is that often they didn’t deserve to be lower ranked. I mean, ten years ago, we could be talking about how incredible “Valse Triste” was and such a shame they couldn’t make the top ten with it, but they’d get their turn “someday.” Instead, COP allows us to point out that technically, they were in the top three and made sixth overall, despite being so low ranked that they skated first (!) in the compulsories at their first worlds. Hell, I see more technical difficulty in V/M’s “Malaguena” than in B/K’s “Riverdance,” honestly. And just as much artistry

    4. A great COP dance to me, by definition, comes from the fact that everything has to be both technical and artistic. Everyone complains about the nature of the elements, but so many teams are finding creative and intriguing ways to go about their elements. Look at how http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sfDaooUGSBo#t=42s]Robledo/Fenero enter a straight line lift.[/url] Original, daring, difficult.... and this is a junior team from a nation that didn’t even have an ice dance coach ten years ago. Unreal. But of course, elements aren’t enough. And this team, of course, isn’t top of the echelon.

    5. And of course, what exactly is artistry anyway?
  14. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    Well the improvement I found lacking in the SD was there in the FD. I expected them to skate both programs to their potential with the time they had between SA and NHK. It was also obvious once the scores came up for I&K that D&W's FD was going to score the seasons high score as in a head to head comparison how could you put them any closer. The two things I find concerning though are the PCS, four 10´s and four 9.75 in interpretation (for instance) and the difficulty it seems to get higher levels on steps (D&W got 9.5s across the board for skating skills yet couldn't get the steps). The one thing with D&W is they tend to peak and impress early in the season and get dull as Worlds approach whereas V&M and P&B type skaters tend to take the full season to really develop their programs so I'm still hopeful but now is the time for me to test my resolve to just enjoy their programs this year, for taking up the challenge to offer something new and exciting and get on with life. It will be more telling to see what the same panel of judges do at GPF with all the top teams there on the same ice, until then I think I'll knit a sweater :D
  15. tuile

    tuile New Member

    Hello all! First post here. I'm excited there's a place to share my love for V/M with other fans! I've just skimmed through some of the latest posts... I don't think we need to worry too much about the NHK scores. As we all know, it's hard to compare scores when there are different judging panels, etc. It's obvious that everyone at NHK was scored higher than their previous competitions. Does this mean that they improved significantly since their last competitions? Maybe. Maybe not. I think it was a much more lenient panel. For comparison's sake - I'll take the top 4 finishers at NHK and compare their FD scores with their previous GP comp:

    D/W - 108.62 @ NHK vs. 104.89 @ SA (increase of 3.73)
    I/K - 96.66 @ NHK vs. 92.76 @ COR (increase of 3.9)
    S/S - 93.72 @ NHK vs. 82.65 @ COR (increase of 11.07)
    O/W - 80.34 @ NHK vs. 73.52 @ COR (increase of 6.83)

    I don't want to take anything away from the above skates, but those are significant increases for ALL the teams. Let's just breathe and as bmcg says, wait until the GPF when they all skate under the same judging panel :)
  16. CatherineC

    CatherineC Active Member

    If someone needs -
    I, musician, analyzed Tessa/ Scott's Carmen dance (what parts from what movements are used).

    1. Parts from Section V:Carmen's Entrance and Habanera (Allegro moderato & Quasi andante)
    2. Parts from Section XI: Adagio (Andante moderato & Adagio)
    3. Parts from Section IX. Torero (Moderato con stoltezza)
    4. Parts from Section VI. Scene (Allegro moderato, Tempo precedente & Andante assai)
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  17. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    2 great posts......welcome both of you :)
  18. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    they probably got wind of the complaints they got for it.
  19. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    It's still there a little bit but it's been toned down A LOT. If Alex Wong suggested that change than it was worth his fee :)
  20. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!


    What galls me is that N&K used to beat everyone on the justification of "Oh, but they have the lines," including good technical teams like Denkova/Staviyski and Delobel/Schoenfelder. Now, I actually do think N&K deserved to win in 2005 and 2006, but I never liked that they were supposed to so untouchable because of the lines.

    Now you have V&M who have better lines than anyone, and also don't have the problems that N&K had (empty programs, too much posing, repetitive lifts, unequal partners), and of course, they're not unbeatable. It's just so :lol: Obviously it all depends on the politics/preferences of the day.
  21. iNap

    iNap Active Member

    O really? I had same feeling about V-M ;)
    carolina and (deleted member) like this.
  22. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

    I know I have repeated myself so many times in this thread - but I saw no real reason for T & S to keep on going after earning an Olympic and World gold medal in the slippery sport of ice dancing unless they stretched themselves and attempted to stretch the sport. Personal preferences aside - I feel "Carmen" is a perfect vehicle for them to do that. Will it win every dust up with D & W - or will everyone think it is as amazing as some of their most ardent fans - maybe not - but I believe they will be remembered for it. I have watched it so many times already and I am loving the ride it takes me on. For me, they are really combining sport and art and I feel a whole mixture of emotions each time I watch it. I feel I have always wanted something like this for them - and I am so happy to be along for the ride as they perfect it and further develop it.
  23. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member


    The way I see it, win Worlds or not, this is a masterpiece that will be remembered years from now. I am happy with that. Yes, I'm still not thinking about them winning Worlds, I am more eager to see how the program evolves from here. I love it passionately.
  24. Lissa

    Lissa New Member


    Exactly, no way should D&W be close this season to V&M when they skate Carmen clean & like they can, for D&W to get that score at NHK is ridiculous imo. However all teams scored way higher than there last GP outing so the judging was probably soft in the FD imo.

    At GPF there should be NO competition, if V&M skate Carmen like they can & D&W still beat them, well then I will believe there is as Chris Dean once said.....more going on OFF the ice rather than ON it...:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  25. Lissa

    Lissa New Member


    That says it all right there......I&K getting 97 with that awful program means giving a 108 to D&W was not that impressive cause clearly they were OVER scoring everyone again. :lol:
  26. IoanaC

    IoanaC Well-Known Member

    So do I.
    I keep remembering what they said in the IFS magazine about Worlds in London being the highlight of their career and making the town proud. It's so thrilling and daunting at the same time. But you're right, it's too early to think about that.
  27. iggie

    iggie Well-Known Member

    v/m debut carmen: d/w fans relinquish all hope of winning worlds
    d/w score well: v/m fans relinquish all hope of winning gpf and worlds
  28. sequins

    sequins Active Member

    We worried ourselves silly over FF last season and that worked out just fine, we fretted over Mahler in 2010 now it's legendary. I'm not climbing on board again this season. Win or lose I, and much of the skating world, love this program and it will be remembered and it will be legendary when all is said and done. NHK is not Worlds and ya if they are gonna give I/K that kinda score with that craptacular program then I can see how D/W marks are justified. Nice to see they toned down the 'stuff' after the program ended, they don't need that garbage. That said aside from V/M I really only love B/S FD this season The Shibs and W/P I like but not totally on board yet.
  29. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

    The scores that tuile broke down put things a bit more into perspective. Thanks tuile.

    Placements aside, I wholeheatedly agree about the place "Carmen" will have in figureskating history. It truly is magnificent whether it wins or or not and it is extemely gratifying to see how well received it has been. Not only by V&M's fans but also those who haven't neccesarily been huge fans of Tessa and Scott's past work and by some pretty huge names in the sport. Even TAT.

    I also love watching Carmen over and over again. I've discovered that each time I watch it, I still get that same feeling I got the first time I saw it in it's entirety. It's as if I just seen it for the first time all over again. There is always something I notice in the next viewing that I may not have noticed the first time. Hopefully unlike some of us (I'm including myself in that), V&M are focusing on their performance and not so much on placements no matter what we think they deserve. If they can forget about placement and just skate then think things may just fall into place.

    Proustable, great post.

    When I use the term "lower ranked" it's not meant as a put down but yes I am referring to skaters outside of the top 5. Skaters who we pretty much know won't be contending for medals. It's true that before this quadrennial the field was so deep that many of the teams out side the top 5 (in the lower top 10 and even right outside the top 10) were just as deserving as some of the top teams. Some even better, they were just "waiting their turns" as they had the misfortune of not being the top team from their respective countries. Granted that wasn't always true but most of the time, not going into Europeans and/or Worlds as the champion from your country effected your placement. At least in icedance.

    I also agree that what one person thinks of as a classic program would be rather "meh" to another. Looking back I realize that being a huge fan of certain teams will effect how highly regarded some of those programs are and at times which programs we might think of as classics that will be watched over and over again and still talked about years later. For me I would say DelShoes' "Frida", The Piano and The Untouchables would be in that category but when I look back, I'm not sure those programs though they are still on my list of programs I still adore were as well received and widely talked about as past programs such as Bolero, K&P's Bach, U&Z's Four Seasons and "Savage Rites" as skated by the Dushesnay's. I think Carmen is definitely in the Bolero, Four Seasons, Savage Rites category.
  30. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Well-Known Member

    much as I loved T/D, Bolero was not one of my favs. Loved Mack and Mable, Barnum, Song of India. I love Carmen much more than Bolero. Imo, I think this Carmen is a stand alone masterpiece in the making.