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Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

    Yikes - that didn't come out exactly the way I meant it. I am very excited to see my daughter get married. And I am very excited to see Tessa and Scott live.
  2. iggie

    iggie Well-Known Member

    who is in front of them?
  3. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    brunette behind scott: "oooh look at that tush" ;)
  4. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Nikolai Morozov
  5. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

    I agree.

    The possibility for talented young teams to rise successfully post-COP has resulted in the top dancers being much younger than in the past. I'm surprised that Marina first suggested Carmen for V/M 4-5 years ago, because back then they would have been much too young to do it justice. Now they have the maturity to explore this theme and have done it wonderfully, IMO.

    I think that another factor at play in some people's reactions to the Carmen program may stem from some differences between (traditional) North American ice dance aesthetics vs. those of continental Europe. Stretching well back pre-COP, N.A. ice dance has had a strong ballroom influence, leading to programs that were typically squeaky-clean, whereas European ice dancers often brought an edginess and visceral emotion to some of their best programs. Needless to say, people can frame any type of aesthetic with positive or negative adjectives, depending on preferences and experience. I love contemporary ballet and modern dance and attend performances regularly; V/M's Carmen reflects what I am accustomed to seeing in those venues and I am thrilled to see them put it on the ice. Visceral expression that speaks to some fundamental elements of human experience, and to do that on top of the extreme technical demands of the piece provides the wow factor for me. Plus the musicality - every movement has purpose, each beat of the music is used. This is a program that will need the season to grow - like Tracy Wilson says there is no way a program this challenging can be skated error-free at the beginning of the season. I hope she can straighten out Brenda Irving and Rod Black when they prattle on, since they have no clue about what is actually difficult in ice dance.

    Of course first love is also a fundamental element of human experience, and they've done a couple of very good programs on that theme. But for someone to say all their programs are about "first love" is absurd; trying to prove that canard wrong is a waste of time IMO. Those who succeed always have their detractors. The comments of people who actually know ice dance like Krylova, Navka, Staviski, Tracy Wilson, not to mention the praise of competitors like Katsalapov is far more important. V/M are skaters' skaters. They have also grown up now and their answers to the Russian fans' questions suggest they have a strong sense of vision for their programs. I hope they stick with that vision, even if they are bashed for it in some quarters.
  6. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    I'm not seeing what's so controversial either. And some of the twitter comments this program has been getting because it's just so "risque" will have you rolling your eyes, majorly.
    Aww, that's so exciting! The wedding that is, but also that you will get to see Tessa and Scott/Carmen in person. If I win the lottery before January, I'm so there.
    Yes! Some of the criticism I've seen is that the program doesn't "look" like Carmen and you've just hit the nail on the head on why it's not supposed/doesn't look like the literal story--they're skating the emotions behind the story. I think it's brilliant really.

    Ok so I finally saw the fanvid that the wonderful Russian fans created with Tessa and Scott and I am so appreciative that they did this. There were so many interesting things in the video that I wouldn't rehash since you guys have pretty much covered it, but I was surprised when Tessa said the main fabric used for her dress (not the skirt part) was gray and they then overlaid it with black lace. Except for the gray accents in the skirt I thought the dress was all black. Anyhow I found that particularly interesting.
    ETA: This picture from the album that sap5 posted (thank you), really shows the detail of Tessa's dress that she described in the fanvid--it's beautiful. Oh one more thing (I think) Scott's shirt too is beautiful and sleek and so modern looking, I love it so much. In the fanvid Tessa mentions that it's made from bamboo, not sure, but that's what it sounded like to me IDK.

    Some really great discussion going on in this thread re Carmen!

    ETA: Also not sure if someone already mentioned this, but Tessa and Scott are ranked #1 again on the ISU world standing.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  7. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

    What is really intriguing is why they brought someone from outside to work on the choreography. Because they should have done that a LOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNG time ago. I hope it sticks for next year. It sucks when they play it safe.
  8. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    I've said it before and I can't say it enough that I hope they continue to work with Swan into next season as well. She brings out something special. Probably helps that she doesn't seem to work with anyone else and the connection with Tessa goes back to her childhood so she is working 100% for them.

    I don't agree that they played it safe though. Technically they didn't and they always work hard to tell a story. What I do think though is that Marina (and Igor while he was around) couldn't fully serve any team for fear of showing favouritism. That it couldn't be anything other than a conflict of interest, trying to give the same to your teams (particularly the top two) meant you weren't going out of your way to make one the best. When one wants to improve something to put them ahead then the other is aware of the change and wants the same. But I do like that Tessa and Scott seemed very clear in that fan interview that they would be continuing to work with Swan throughout the season. I hope they insist on it next season as well.
  9. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Actually, they did do that a long time ago. They worked with her for Pink Floyd, and I know they worked with outside choreographers for their Flamenco OD, and their Latin FD. My feeling is Tessa's injuries hampered them far more than we thought. Now that (hopefully) she's feeling good again, we are able to really see what they can do.

    Ever since I learned that if you win the Olympics and Worlds in the same year, only one of those events is counted towards the rankings, I've thought the rankings are nothing but silliness.
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Can anyone share some articles or insights about Swan's working relationship with V&M? I agree that Swan being kind of V&M's "personal choreographer" is a huge plus for them. Modern dance/ballet choreographers working with ice dancers who have great technique is such a winning combo that I don't know why everyone doesn't do it (Shanti Rushpaul :swoon:). And I really love that the relationship is organic, stemming from Tessa having a real dance background, and not a meeting done for show (like when Debi Thomas had Baryshnikov come in for her Carmen, lol).

    Basically I am curious to know where she is located and if she is the type of choreographer who comes in as a one-off and does the program for them and maybe visits once or twice a year to tweak, or if she's part of their daily or weekly regimen. If the latter, she probably couldn't work with any other teams outside of Detroit.

    To be honest, I bet she could do amazing things with Pechalat/Bourzat, though that would never happen unless and until either they or V&M turn pro.
  11. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Hmmmm ... a challenge I'm going to take you up on :D

    Tessa is throwing daggers at NM because he's in her line of sight. Oh wait, that's not true, she's actually getting into HER zone.
    Scott is looking for guidance from above so that there are no mistakes when they skate their FD.
    Lady on left is in the middle of rolling her eyes because NM dares to be near HER Tessa & Scott.
    Lady in the middle is checking out Tessa's outfit and wondering if she dare wear anything "so revealing" for the love interest in her life.
    Lady on the right is thinking of what she'd like to be doing with Scott and that he should win PSOTY this year.

    OK, that's my imagination trying to work. Next?
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  13. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Why? If you could post about V-M i coudnt post about D-W? Sorry, but i never saw in your posts nothing about D-W need to skate and change in there skation, but you spend all your day to try show Carmen is nothing risky and they didnt made they need to do.
  14. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure why you choose to misunderstand my posts. It's sad, because I like to have discussions, but you make it very difficult.

    Well, this is the V/M thread. So I post about V/M about in here, not D/W. I thought that's what you're always telling people to do? My posts about D/W are generally in the D/W thread.

    I'm pretty sure you've never actually read my posts. That's why you've never seen anything about changes I'd like to see in D/W's skating. Just recently I posted that I wished they hadn't included a lift from DF in their Notre Dame free dance, and I hoped that they would replace that.

    I never said Carmen as a program wasn't risky -- anyone can see that it is. I said that doing something "overtly sexual" wasn't risky. In the past, I would have thought that you missed that nuance because English isn't your first language. However, I have experienced your posts enough over the years to know that you know the difference. Why you enjoy bullying people online is something I'll never understand, but I won't stand for it.

    ETA: If you want to continue this, feel free to PM me. I'm sure the rest of the board would rather have this offline.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  15. IoanaC

    IoanaC Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the links. Elina Garanca is a good Carmen (she has a fabulous voice, one of the best mezzos today), but I think I prefer Beatrice Uria-Monzon.

  16. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    O, really? Yes, this is big deal, when V-M need to skate something about robots.
    Sorry, but i really dont like people who try to made impression they love both teams, but then discuss only one team didnt made nothing they need to do and said about D-W FD - o, this is amazing, amazing connection :lol:
    Sorry, i think i need to stop joking too much.
    Take it easy, your D-W will have 120 this week-end for best FD in history. Could you spend this time in D-W thread? :D
  17. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    I think this is very traditional version, when Elina Garanca is pure sex :D I love both.
  18. cris_c

    cris_c Guest

    I nominate my favourite Carmen, not known as she would deserve: Rinat Shaham

    Not a very good quality video, unfortunately


    And just an audio version
  19. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

  20. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

    I think it's a bit much to ask skaters in their teens or very early 20's to dictate terms to a world-leading coach. Especially when they are athletes who have worked hard and made sacrifices to succeed and want to win. Also Tessa's surgeries and physio/rehab took a lot of their attention. Fortunately she now seems able to train freely; they are also older, have been through a lot and probably have a much stronger sense of their own vision. But they are still just 23/25 and it seems that they appreciated the positive feedback in Russia a great deal. They need that feedback, to hear that the artistic and technical risks are appreciated, especially since sportswriters in Canada typically know zero about figure skating and won't give them any credit for those risks if they don't pay off (with scores).

    In their Q&A with Russian fans, it turns out that they redid the program almost completely in August, based on Jennifer Swan's input. They have not had a lot of time to refine this version of the program yet. Jennifer Swan is Tessa's original dance teacher who worked with her for many years; Marina didn't find her. With the fans, they carefully skirt the question of how much input percentage-wise Swan and Zoueva contributed, but people will draw their own conclusions. Naturally Marina played a vital role in integrating the choreographer's vision into a COP dance program, and regardless of the exact sequence of events that led to the re-choreographing in August, she will want primary credit (if the risks pay off).

    All teams "play it safe" to some degree in the Olympic year. I hope they get a lot of positive feedback from people who appreciate this year's program, which will encourage them (as still relatively young ice dancers) to continue to push boundaries (because there are plenty of voices who will bash them, and the program as well, for a variety of reasons).
  21. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall Active Member

    Jennifer Swan was mentioned in their book, page 40, mostly related to Tessa turning down her spot at the National Ballet School. She's from London, Ontario. Tessa enrolled in her "Baby Ballet" program when she was 3. There is a very nice quote from her describing Tessa as a kid. From Google, here is the most interesting bit I found:


    I am really not sure how to interpret the last part. Does it mean she has input in UofC also? Or maybe just a typo? Have Tessa and Scott revealed before any outside choreographer they have had? I am a post-Oly fan so I don't know much before that, though I kind of sense that the info about Jennifer Swan being involved n PF was kind of new.

    My favorite IWTHYH performance was from TEB last year. Their upper body movements were particularly sensuous, more so compared to other performances I think. And yes, as many stated already they really timed this Carmen FD at the most appropriate time in their career. My favorite quote about this goes something like "everything they've done before have led them to this." Maybe from you or from Carmen O. or from IoanaC (can't really remember sorry) but it sums it up nicely.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  22. elle123

    elle123 Member

    Yeah, probably a typo. Or maybe they meant 2008-09 season even though they didn't even compete in the 2008 portion of that season? They probably did the actual choreography for PF in 2008. Either way, the way they put it in the article is very confusing.
  23. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Thanks from me as a latvian FS fan ;). I saw the live broadcast of it from Met in cinema, and also have a DVD of it - but this is from another time, I think. It was/is great, really. And I don't think so just because I am Latvian like Garanca. I truly like her singing and her divaish presence on stage (especially perceivable in this role), but I also liked Alagna in the role of Jose, other singers, and the whole production. Actually, many say that Garanca is not right for Carmen, as she is too cold. Her approach to this role really was different from what we often see. In this Carmen, we can see that she really is just using Jose, playing with him for her own fun, and doesn't feel any kind of love towards him even for a moment. To me, her cruelty and coldness in this role was quite fascinating. I think it's quite close to Tessa's Carmen (if we still see her as Carmen, not just as a representation of emotions, as walei wrote) in their FD, except that they have that moment in their dance when Carmen seems close to loving Jose.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  24. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Thats why i post link in this thread ;)
    And i was talking more about russian-speaking fans :)
  25. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    I understood that. But I thanked you as a latvian fan, because Elina Garanca is latvian too (if you didn't notice this in my previous post ;)), so I wanted to thank you for acknowledging and mentioning her. By the way, I speak russian too, although I am not russian ;).
  26. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Like you understand, i am not russian too, but russian is my native language ;)
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  27. IoanaC

    IoanaC Well-Known Member

    As I see it, they are embodying both the characters and their emotions. The evolution of the characters is the same as in the story/opera's libretto. I'll never get why some people say "it's not Carmen" and use this as an argument to justify their dislike of the program (the Sonia Bianchetti article, more recently - although she never likes what T&S do, so I'm not really surprised). All the pivotal moments and feelings in the story are portrayed in the program. Just because the ending isn't what people are used to seeing, i.e. her dying dramatically in Don Jose's arms, doesn't mean it's not actually Carmen. It baffles me sometimes that people are incapable of going beyond the first level of interpretation.
  28. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Sonia Bianchetti liked Mahler :rolleyes: And you must understand- she is Italian and must support Anna and Luca.
    Not all people. I think V-M understand, when they made this FD, not all people will love it, like last season D-W FD. But cant stop to say - i am happy this two grow up and show what nobody could show today :hat1:
    And i am happy some FS fans, who never like V-M programs, but admit there skating skills, respect this FD.
  29. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Haters are going to hate, and any excuse, no matter how illogical, will work. ;)