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US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 4, 2012.

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    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Re "The days of the salchow & loop are over," maybe, maybe not. These things change and shift depending on the table of base values. At one point, the throw flip was the same value as the throw loop. Now they are different, and have been for some time. However, it seems that teams learn the throw flip/lutz if anything, easier than the throw loop, which is why some teams don't do the throw loop, even though the throw salchow has a slightly lower base value. It's entirely possible they will go back to the same value some day. Not to mention that the throw 3A is grossly undervalued, and that may change some day.

    In the case of the teams doing SBS flips or lutzes, considering many guys lip and many girls flutz (and a few the reverse), I don't think these are ever going to be universally done, provided that the pairs tech panels do their jobs on edge calls. An edge call wipes out the advantage of the higher base value jump. Certainly, I don't see a whole raft of teams that you could put together who would do the 3F in one jump pass and the 3Lz in the other.

    Not to mention that a girl who can do both a flip and lutz (one in combination) clearnly is likely to be continuing on in singles.

    Yamaguchi & Galino in the early 1990's were doing side by side triple flips-it has never caught on generally in pairs.
  2. figureit

    figureit Active Member

    Also wanted to note G&G also did a quad twist but the judges never caught it and I think even Scott Hamilton called it a triple later to find out it was a quad. It held no extra value and was very hard on the girls body so they stopped doing it.
    Does any team do a quad and has any American ever done one? Would it hold a higher value than the triple?
    You are also right about things changing! I would hate to be a coach in pairs cause lifts, death spirals, levels etc constantly changing even in the same season...
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Sui/Han have done quad twist in competition. It's execution was widely criticised on these boards- she basically fell onto him. But the judges didn't seem to care.

    Did Carman/Knierim ever do theirs in competition? I do know they interviewed saying they knew they wouldn't be able to do it once she grew because it relied so much on him being able to chunk her tiny body into the air.
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    The quad twist (Lutz, flip or toe loop takeoff) has a base value of 6.6 (B) to 8.6 (level 4) - it's published in the current ISU Scale of Values document. The triple twist is worth 4.6 (B) to 6.2 (L4).

    ETA that Sui/Han's 4LzTw1 at 2012 Worlds had a base value of 7.1 points and they received -1 GOE. They rather controversially had received +1.86 GOE for the same element at 2012 Four Continents, which was debated here last year, as Skittl1231 mentioned.

    No, I only saw a practice clip of their 4twist years ago. It's the only 4twist I've ever seen attempted on video by a recent U.S. pair that I know of. It's been mentioned here before, but Brynn Carman, now 18, has since switched to ice dance and is training in Canton, Michigan and looking for a partner.

    ETA #2 - link to new article titled "Castelli, Shnapir's non-split decision proved wise" with quotes from them and their coach, Bobby Martin: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130307&content_id=42402624&vkey=ice_news
    BTW, we're nearing 1000 posts in this thread so it will be locked soon. Discussion of Castelli/Shnapir and Scimeca/Knierim at Worlds can continue in the 2013 Worlds forum in Kiss and Cry, and a U.S. Pairs news/updates 2013 thread eventually can be started for the upcoming season.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  5. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    Peng/Zhang from China do a quad twist, and they do it very well. It's their best element. But despite it being a huge point getter, I can't see it ever really catching on like the men and their quads because size wise, it's rarely possible to make it work.

    And as for "I think the days of just having the throw sal and loop are over"... It really depends on the team. Some teams really struggle to increase the difficulty in their throws regardless of how many more points they know they can receive for them. T/T were a good example of that, and we are seeing something similar with C/S now. They are more comfortable with a throw 4S than a 3Lo or 3F, which is quite strange. Who knows if we'll ever see the throw 4S in competition (even though it looks pretty good in video).

    It definitely seems that more teams are trying to master a 3F/3Lz now before mastering a throw 3Lo (whereas in the past it was reversed), but some teams may end up being more comfortable with just the loop and sal.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    New IN article re C/S almost splitting last year:


    Unfortunately, no throw 3x or 4s at Worlds:

  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    I also edited in quotes by their coach Bobby Martin from the Castelli/Shnapir article in my post (#994) above.

    Thanks for the reminder! I looked up Peng/Zhang's 2013 Four Continents FS protocol and their quad twist was called 4Tw2, 7.6 base value with +2.14 GOE = 9.74 points (the highest scoring element in their program). But they had mistakes in their sbs jumps and finished 5th overall and 6th in the FS, behind both U.S. pairs and all 3 Canadians, although P/Z did have the third highest TES.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  8. Spiralgraph

    Spiralgraph Well-Known Member

  9. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    Definitely, but what can you do? You have to do what you can do, especially if you main goal is "a solid competition". And they've been able to score relatively decently with the axel and sal.
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    Castelli/Shnapir's 2ATh has a base value of 4.00 and they added +1.9 GOE at 2013 4CC, while their 3STh in the second half with a BV of 4.95 received +1.7 GOE. Their ISU PB and SB FS score of 117.04 was set at 4CC, even though they lost points on their sbs jumps (3T with negative GOE and 1A+1T instead of 2A+2T).
  11. figureit

    figureit Active Member


    IN article before Nationals in Omaha: QUOTE:
    "The past few seasons, the team has attempted the throw triple Axel, a maneuver only two-time U.S. pairs champions Rena Inoue and John Baldwin have landed cleanly in international competition. Although they have also worked to perfect the throw quadruple Salchow, it's likely neither element will appear in competition in Omaha. Instead, the pair will stick with throw double Axel and throw triple Salchow, the elements they executed in their Grand Prix events.

    "We spent a lot of time working on the throw Axel and quad, and we kind of weighed our options," Shnapir said. "We just decided, if we put out strong, clean programs without them, we can still score well.

    "I think our new programs and the commitment we made together to really stick to the original concept -- working on our skating skills and in-between elements and transitions and whatnot -- has helped us improve our score internationally. You can see the biggest jump for us has been our second mark. If we were to make the world team, it's definitely something we would like to try in the programs, putting in the harder throws.""

    Martin said in same article.... And for now, the coach is focused on showing his pair's consistency in Omaha.
    "The biggest thing this year is their maturation and growth in every aspect of their skating," he said. "Clearly, they want to build the performance side. One throw isn't going to win a competition. We hope to use [the throw triple Axel or throw quad] as a 'secret weapon' down the road."

    I think the secret is it out.and I think if D/C were going to World's they would put it in and if S/K or Z/B were going they would water it down still...problem is they were third in FS at Omaha right? beat by both S/K and Z/B?

    ..this is a point focused sport now for sure. I think it is strange that I read several articles saying if they make World's they will add the harder throws after they won Nationals I saw many interviews where they were back tracking on those hyped up articles. I wonder if they made a difference in scoring? and if USFS is disappointed in this decision. I see the points can be gained but I also see if you do a FS and fall on a throw d axel or throw T sal it could be devastating. So a crap shoot...odds on them landing the super easy throws are better then landing the "harder throws" I guess and....

    If only one thing goes wrong they are screwed...but I can appreciate a gamble so what ever they decide they are doing what is best for them and I support that fully! just bummed.cause I know they can do it...but this is still a political sport with political moves to be made...and strategy to be played and I respect that too. ON to World's! :D
  12. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    If Simon had just been clean on the 2a-2t, they would've scored over 120 points in the LP at 4CCs.
  13. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

    When referring to the World Championships with one word, it's "Worlds," no apostrophe. Similarly, the one-word name for the U.S. National Championships is "Nationals," for the Canadian National Championships, "Canadians," for the Eastern Sectional Championships, "Easterns." The various regional championships are called "Regionals." I have no idea why and my spell-checker hates it, but the upcoming competition is Worlds.

    Axel is spelled with a capital A and an x, e, and l, in that order. It's not spelled "axle" like the car part. Axel Paulsen was a real person and we use the actual spelling of his name. Similarly, the jumps Salchow and Lutz are capitalized, while the jumps toe loop, loop, and flip are not.

    "Anti" is a prefix that means "against." "Ante" is a price or cost. "Up the ante" is an expression that comes from poker. When someone ups the ante, it means that the stakes are raised and the risk is increased. When we're talking about a pair team adding a 3ATh or 4STh, obviously the stakes are raised and there's the possibility of an increase payout in the form of base value, but the risk also goes up. Some of the risks are obvious. The obvious risks range from falling on the throw (-3GOE, -1 fall deduction) to falling on a downgraded or underrotated throw (lower base value, -3GOE, -1 fall deduction [it's pretty much impossible to stand up on a cheated throw triple or quad]) to falling on the throw (insert standard deduction here) and having the fall knock the wind out of the girl or disrupt the program or deplete so much energy that the rest of the performance - technical and components - suffers.

    Less obvious of a risk is landing the 3ATh/4STh and being so excited that the rest of the program suffers. More than once, I've seen a boy land a 3A for the first time in competition and then pop six times. This isn't something that you can really address in practice, because in competition is the key.

    Perhaps even less obvious: adding a 3ATH/4STh for competition requires practicing it. In and out of the program. On days when it feels "right" and on days when it doesn't. The risk of injury when doing a 3ATh/4STh is astronomical. Seriously, astronomical. There's a reason why we don't see very many of them. Almost no one can practice them day-in, day-out without injury.

    Perhaps even less obvious than that: there's very little to gain for a U.S. pair by trying 3ATh/4STh at Worlds. Barring disaster, the U.S. should qualify two pairs for the Olympics with almost no chance at three spots. After Nationals, there was this moment when the possible entries for World looked like this:
    Marissa Castelli/Simon Shnapir
    Caydee Denney/John Coughlin: hip surgery, unlikely to compete
    Alternate 1 - Alexa Scimeca/Chris Knierim: foot injury
    Alternate 2 - Felicia Zhang/Nathan Bartholomay: minimums not met
    Alternate 3 - Lindsay Davis/Mark Ladwig: broken up

    If you were U.S. Figure Skating looking at that line-up with a goal of "barring disaster," would you encourage Castelli and Shnapir to try a 3ATH/4STh at Worlds? Or would you tell them to wear bubble wrap for the next two months and oh, by the way, the goal is to avoid disaster not to increase technical difficulty?

    Solo 2A/3S/3T: many skaters, especially pairs skaters, use a very similar entry pattern for 2A and 3S, but a completely different pattern for 3T. If a program is choreographed for solo 3S and solo 3T, and later one of the triples needs to be swapped for a 2A, it's a lot easier to swap the 3S for a 2A than to swap the 3T for a 2A without rechoreographing the program and if you rechoreograph, are there now too many elements in one corner or is the program now too circular or too straight, and... it's much easier to just leave the pattern of the program the same.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  14. figureit

    figureit Active Member

    Absolute apology for not double checking my auto correct...as far as some of the lower case and obvious liberties with certain elements. I am a lay person not a JUDGE and therefore speak as I choose reflective of that. I believe there are reasons and points to both and all use of language can be relative to the creative way someone may want to discuss something...believe me listening to skaters talk and write on twitter and the like can be interesting to boot. (meaning in addition to or moreover) It comes from not a boot at all. This term has nothing to do with footwear. The 'boot' is thought to be a derivative of the earlier 'bat' meaning 'good or useful'.

    I can so appreciate the time it took to review, research, and put this additional information in your post and I thought it was very interesting indeed. I think every now and then it keeps things on task and in focus especially in this thread. Much respect for that and again thank you, truly.

    It is good to be aware of a technical Judge background and information though. Pointing out Worlds and the athletes going and injuries etc...Made me think it would be smarter to schedule Worlds or Olympics earlier after all Nationals. That way the training is not elongated (I am really tempted to put in a gumby quote here) and injuries are not as possible...let's face it these bodies have a limit and to extend the training so far into the next season is not the best choice especially for pairs given the difficulty of elements they do specifically. If the athletes are the focus....that should be revisited. Nationals, 4CC's, and then (OLYS) Worlds then I believe WTT; is.. you have to admit crazy...after a long season and new programs needing to be done sooner and sooner every year. Just a thought.

    No innocent facts, spellings, or abbreviations were purposefully hurt in the making of these comments. Also no disrespect meant I truly appreciate your exactness... it is needed:) RESPECT! I do find it strange that some teams do the 3T on a curve and do a triple/double twist on a straight line. Changing set ups for jumps in a program can not only be possible especially in 5 weeks but create an opportunity to improve the transitions in a program in my view because a straight line entrance especially to a 3T can be very very obvious and in fact can cause a jump to be telegraphed. It would be interesting to hear your view though on this.

    I did find a weird factoid though: Should we be calling the flip the "Mapes".

    The origins of the flip jump are obscure. Starting in 1913, the jump was known for many years as a Mapes (now applied to the toe loop in the jargon of artistic roller skating), but it is not known for certain if Bruce Mapes was the inventor. Hmmmm......
  15. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Next year every team should claim to have sbs lutzes and two throw qauds.... but only if they make the world team!!!

    I can't wait until next year when C&S are off the podium at Nationals where they belong. Hopefully then Castelli will find a partner who isn't as stiff as a board.
  16. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    I think this will be C&S only time they will be at Worlds especially with only two spots. They got lucky that the top 3 teams from last year were not there. D/C will be back and i see K/S passing them up very quickly. Add in D/B and Z/B and the kids that just won Jr Worlds and i don't see them near the top again.
  17. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Really? I disagree. I think C/S have the chops to make the team in the future. They've done a great job of building up consistency and I think what will happen is that after Worlds, they will strategize to increase difficulty on their SBS jumps and throws, perhaps work on their SBS spins.
  18. BittyBug

    BittyBug Dispirited

    U.S. Figure Skating might disagree with this. ;)

  19. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    :lol: This seems to be a trend on skating forums... Wait for someone to win Nationals, then bash them and long for next year's Nationals when others have a chance to beat them. :lol:

    I don't think it's very alarming or upseting that C/S won't be trying their throw quad, etc, at Worlds. With these super high level elements, I don't think you can ever definitely expect them to be in programs. Look at Savchenko/Szolkowy's throw 3A attempts last season... They would usually decide at the last minute (right on competition day) whether or not they would throw it, and by Worlds they pretty much weren't even considering it. Some of these elements you really take day by day.

    And as for 2 sets of SBS triples, if C/S's main aim is to skate solidly at Worlds, they probably don't think it's worth the risk to suddenly start doing something they haven't competed all season. It can be tough to make major changes for the biggest competition of the year.
    Smiley0884 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. Sunshine2

    Sunshine2 New Member

    I heard that Michael Johnson is coming out to California to stay I wonder who he is skating with
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    ^Who is Michael Johnson? Sorry if his name was somewhere up-thread, but I've never heard of him before ...
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    Michael Johnson, who turns 19 this month, placed 9th in Junior Pairs at Nationals with Caitlin Belt (currently listed on IPS), and they were 4th at the 2012 Youth Olympics in Austria, which was their international debut for the USA in Junior Pairs. Johnson has one more season of ISU Junior eligibility left before the new ISU age rules come into effect in the 2014-15 season.

    ETA that a brand new updates thread for U.S. Pairs has been started: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?87372-US-Pairs-2013-News-and-Updates-Part-II
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  23. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

    New thread? I love to keep track of what's going on with US pairs.
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