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"Unappreciated" Jumps

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by sk8tergirl, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. sk8tergirl

    sk8tergirl New Member

    I am a big fan of jumps, (absolutely LOVE the quads)!!! :eek: However.... With all the emphasis on multi-rotations, skating seems to be "loosing" some difficult and beautiful jumps from the past because they aren't worth any points: Open axel, Delayed axel, Tuck axel, Inside axel, One-foot axel, etc.

    Walleys are occasionally seen, but many skaters usually don't consider the wasted energy worth it since they only count towards artistic and aren't given any points (no matter how well done) in their own right. The same goes for "show jumps" like Russian Splits, Split Falling Leafs, Split Jumps, Hitch Kicks etc.

    Not sure what to suggest. Obviously, they are not as difficult as triples or quads, (and so shouldn't be given that kind of credit).... But I haven't seen a "Robin Cousins" Type Delayed Axel since....Well, Robin Cousins. :( Same for the Tuck Axel. (I think Josef Sebachek still preforms one in his show routines). I have seen Jennifer Robinson do the one-foot axel in her show routines.

    I just wonder if there is any way to "save" these jumps since they seem to be fading away in the face of the "bigger" jumps like the triples and quads. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the triples and quads, too.....But I love ALL jumps and it seems some of the really cool ones are fading away... :(
  2. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    I wonder if this post might be best moved to the Great Skate Debate or the Trashcan, as the the Moves in the Field forum is for particpating skaters.
  3. watchthis!!

    watchthis!! Well-Known Member

    Agreed, this is a very interesting topic that would probably be seen by many more people in a different forum. :)
  4. Sulphur

    Sulphur Well-Known Member

    Agree with OP. Also, when was the last time a ladies skater put a decent falling leaf split in the climax of their short program? Probably Sasha Cohen?
  5. ltnskater

    ltnskater Active Member

    I agree! Unfortunately, the only way to get skaters to do these elements once again is to reward them with points. On the flip side, once you start giving out points for them (no matter how little), every single skater is going to start attempting them in an effort to get those points and you have a situation similar to bullets for spin levels (i.e. Change of edge, biellmann's, etc.) - now with very heavy restrictions since everyone started doing the same thing.
  6. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

    I would love to see a double wally jump. Like an inside edge, edge jump!
    Wonder what level it would get. I don't think there's a designation actually
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    No walley is in the scale of values, so even a double would get no points. Ditto for inside axel.

    I'd like to see at least the doubles added to the SoV so there would be incentive for high-level skaters to learn them. I think the doubles should be worth at least as much as double axel in base mark.

    Either the singles could stay unlisted (so skaters who do triples could include them as transitions), or they could be worth more than single axel -- maybe about the same as double loop.

    Any half-rotation jump or other unlisted jump can be done as a transition. The problem is if they're technically difficult, skaters won't bother to learn them. And if they use up a lot of energy, they're less likely to put them in a program if the only reward is in PCS.

    And for variations on low-rotation listed single jumps, like split-flip (or lutz) or delayed axel, they would use up a jump box for a low-value jump, even if they should earn +3 GOE. However, at the end of the program after all the jump boxes have been filled, then they'd work the same as nonlisted jumps.

    Under the current rules, any of these things could be used in senior LP choreo sequence, after all the jump boxes have been filled. But again, the only reward would be in PCS, and GOE for the sequence.

    Several years ago, when there were still second step sequence/leveled spiral sequence elements, my recommendation was to introduce other leveled sequence options: a field moves sequence with features for spread eagles, Ina Bauers, shoot-the-duck/hydroblading-type moves, etc.; and a small-jump sequence using no-rotation up to 1.5 rotation jumps. If there were levels, there would be higher base marks for the more difficult stuff, so that would be more incentive for skaters to learn and include them.

    And skaters would have so many options for what kind of sequence to include and what features to use that we'd see much more variety of skills in the free programs. The only real drawback I can see would be more work for the tech panels to learn all those extra options.
  8. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    I miss seeing the 1-foot Axel+3Salchow. Jill Trenary was known for this and Nicole Bobek attempted it in the 1995 season. I also miss Nicole Bobek's split falling leaf+3toe. Back flips are illegal in competition, but I always got a kick out of Surya Bonaly's back flip landed on 1 foot into 3Salchow. Matt Savoie and Timothy Goebel were known for doing a back shoot the duck into 3loop, which I liked. I always loved when Jeremy Abbott landed a 3Axel out of his really difficult one foot curve entry with no setup whatsoever for the jump. Michelle Kwan in 1996 did an ina bauer entry before her 3loop, which was a really nice touch and went so well with her music to Salome. In 2009 Joannie Rochette did a very difficult 1 foot footwork entry into her 3flip jump in the LP that fit her music so well; I always really liked Rochette's jump sequences too (3toe+1loop+3Salchow; 3flip+step+3Salchow; 2Axel+1loop+3Salchow (too bad they didn't count as combination passes back when she competed). I also liked Irina Slutskaya's 3turns into 3loop; Stephane Lambiel also attempted this in his 2006 LP to great effect. Evgeni Plushenko's 3Axel+step+3flip was insanely difficult and I loved it too!

    It's a real shame COP does not recognize the value in some of these moves in the field, which added excitement to skating programs.
  9. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    I thought this was true also (re the split flip/lutz), but neither Courtney Hicks' (Russian) split flip at the Salt Lake Senior B nor Daisuke Takahashi's in his choreo sequence at Skate America were called by the Technical Panel. They were executed last in the program, probably because they either thought they would be called or at least might be, and by doing them last they don't risk losing technical points for a multi-revolution jump done afterward. The ISU Technical Panel Handbook says that "listed" jumps (listed in the scale of values) may be executed in the choreographic sequence and WILL be called and will occupy a jump box. I thought that a split flip would count as a 1F and would be called.

    I hope the technical panels are being consistent and if they aren't calling it at the end of the program, they wouldn't call it in the beginning or middle either, because I'd hate to see a skater lose points for a multi-revolution jump because they took from the fact that it hadn't been being called by tech panels that it wasn't considered a listed jump.

    One simple option that might encourage skaters to do cool jumps like that (split flip, delayed axel, etc.) would be to allow them in the choreo sequence WITHOUT them being called. The tech panel already determines when the choreo sequence begins and ends, so it wouldn't be hard to determine that the jump was within the sequence and therefore shouldn't block a jump box. That would allow them to do a jump like that before a multi-revolution jump and be sure that the multi-revolution jump would get credit. Another option I've thought of is to allow a "choreographic jump" that could be placed anywhere in the program and be listed in the planned program content. I don't think it should be worth technical points because then everyone would do it and it would be less special and we'd probably see some really mediocre ones, but if it was an option more skaters might think about it and work on cool jumps. I also think they could bring back the "bonus" and have each judge potentially give a bonus if the skater did something really wonderful and/or creative with that element (with the bonus being awarded if a majority of judges give it, like deductions are now).

    ETA: Courtney just did it again in her FS at Skate Canada, we'll see if it gets called this time.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  10. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Courtney's split flip wasn't called in the FS today at Skate Canada either.
  11. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

    First person I thought of when I saw this thread was Courtney Hicks, which is why I've become a fan of her since I first saw her debut at Sr. Nationals. I love how she just jumps up into the air doing a plie or a humongous stag jump with variation (shades of Barbara Ann Scott). She honest to God looks like she's flying. :cool:

    And personally I used to love it when skaters that are natural big jumpers like Courtney do delayed axels (Kurt Browning) or just jump up into the air really really high and stay there (e.g. Evgeni Plushenko when going into a death drop). Things like that. :)
  12. RobinA

    RobinA Active Member

    I was going to mention the wally, which I think is a very interesting jump. However, if it gets no points we will rarely see it, since skating is now a numbers game.
  13. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Walleys are commonly seen as transitions. I've never seen a double walley before, though I remember hearing from an impressed observer that Kurt Browning did double walleys off of two feet in a show several years ago.
  14. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Well-Known Member

    Are these jumps done in the lower levels since they are simpler or easier jumps? Maybe they are being done just not at the top levels of skating now.
  15. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    At least in the places I've skated, you don't see them much. We learned a walley once for the heck of it, but I've never seen any of the kids who were in that class do one again (I haven't either).

    And many of these jumps aren't simpler jumps. The axel variations are all very difficult for low level skaters.

    You do still see a decent number of split/stag jumps at lower levels in artistic programs though.
  16. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I see single walley -- both in elite programs and at the grassroots levels -- approximately the same amount before and after IJS.

    Based on when I see kids starting to learn it, I would say it's approximately as difficult as a mid-level double jump.

    (And therefore a double walley, if anyone were to do it, would probably be comparable difficulty to an easier triple.)

    I've seen it rarely from juvenile-level skaters and with somewhat increasing frequency at subsequent levels above that. Never below juvenile.

    I remember one junior-level teen skater attempt to teach it to another. Because they rotated in opposite directions, the process of trying to get the learning skater to understand what to do was very confusing and therefore amusing to watch; there were quite a few one-foot salchows in the wrong direction attempted by mistake.


    I see split/stag jumps in competition programs as well. I don't think they have become more rare under IJS either. They're useful as transitions. I know one coach who has all her skaters do a split jump (flip takeoff) preceding their flips in competition, whether they're doing singles, doubles, or triples.

    And the US juvenile test requires a split, stag, falling leaf, or half loop jump.

    Between achieving just a recognizable attempt at a split (maybe 90 degrees) and actually achieving a full split in the air (180 degrees) are gradations of quality, but the definition of the move is the same.

    Same with single axel or any other single-rotation jump from a standard takeoff, with a variation in air position. Just being able to do the jump itself, is a low-level move, but achieving a split or other extended position at the peak, and/or delaying the rotation significantly, takes much greater skill and would need to be trained after the basic move has been mastered.

    Before my time, but my understanding is that these used to be a lot more common before skaters needed to train multiple triple jumps.

    These had already become rare by the 1980s and even moreso by the 90s, when adding rotations to all the takeoffs had become the definition of good jump skills.

    We did sometimes see them in show programs from skaters who didn't bother to include them in competition.

    With IJS, as long as a jump is considered a nonlisted element, it's valuable as a transition, which is why we see walleys and split jumps approximately as often now as 10-15 years ago.

    I haven't seen a full inside axel in a competitive program since the early maybe mid-90s, so I wouldn't blame the disappearance of that one on IJS. Mishin's students used it as warmups in the 90s -- is that still the case?
  17. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Someone did it in the free skate at Skate Canada. It was cool and you'd think I'd remember who it was. Joshua Farris maybe? I've seen it a handful of times in competition since the mid-90s (I remember a non-elite senior skater no one here would've heard of doing it in a non-qual competition 6 years ago or so-- I still remember who, but can't remember who did it 2 days ago. :p)
  18. sadya

    sadya Active Member

    Delayed axels are amongst my favourite jumps.
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    Another thread that seems to belong in the Trash can because of the type of discussion going on here. I can see why a new poster would be confused by the names, because it may appear that the Great Skate Debate (GSD)is where you 'debate' or discuss your opinions, but that's not the case. The GSD forum is actually where we typically post news articles, announcements of upcoming shows/competitions, ISU annoucements, etc. We then discuss them, of course. Discussions about favorites (skaters/competitions/jumps, etc.), past competitions/performances, etc. are usually in the Trash Can. This is a really good & usually clean Trash Can though, so don't let the name scare you away. :)
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    Well, it seems that a FSU Admin. decided to move this thread from Moves in the Field to GSD. :) (see post #2)

    I hope Courtney Hicks' Russian split (single) flip in her programs this year will start a trend for these type of jumps to be used more often in competition as choreographic flourishes.
  21. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

    Delayed axels :swoon:
  22. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Yes. Plushy's inside axel in 2009. He trained jumps before the show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy7bcn-gAl0
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  23. sk8tergirl

    sk8tergirl New Member

  24. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Nan Song just did an inside axel in his choreographic sequence in the free skate at TEB.

    ETA: I believe Jason Brown did one near the beginning of his step sequence also, and Patrick did one or something very similar in his choreographic sequence.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  25. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

    Russian Split Jumps in competition - love them!
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Half inside axel, takes off from RFI, one revolution, lands forward

    something similar here

    I didn't see anything like that.

    This? He takes off from LBI and lands forward, so I'd call it a 1.5 salchow.

    In this post, I noted a bunch of interesting half jumps, opposite direction or counterrotated on takeoff or landing, in Chan's SP.

    Which reminds me of this split half lutz transition from another Canadian. And while we're at it, walley, edge change, opposite-direction reverse one-foot salchow

    And then that reminds me of double one-foot salchow by yet another.

    Keep 'em coming!
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  27. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    OK, so none of them were really an inside axel, just unusual miniature jumps done quickly within steps and choreography and thus hard to accurately identify in real time. Jason Brown's cool jump in his step sequence (around 2:50) looks like it has a walley takeoff, rotates clockwise (opposite of his normal jumping direction) and only half a revolution, and lands on two feet with an exit edge on the opposite curve than would be expected.

    A couple very unusual combinations in practice by lower-level skaters (though these involve "listed" jumps):
    1Lz+1Lz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5A6f-956Ug (with the two jumps in opposite directions)
    1S+2S http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9TcfkgeN4g (first jump is a one-foot salchow)

    3S+2F from Brian Pockar (one foot triple salchow):
  28. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Wow, very tricky to figure out just what he's doing there.
  29. FigureSpins

    FigureSpins Well-Known Member

    That is tricky because he checks his arms/shoulders to the right throughout the entry, as if he's going to do a CCW Salchow. On my screen, it looks like he takes off from the LBI edge and turns CW, which makes it a half-walley. It's more common to see someone cross-check a CW Walley entry and bring the arms around as the free leg swings back. Very interesting to watch.

    One of the Ladies at Trophee Bompard had a huge Walley in her freeskate program, but I can't remember who it was.
  30. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

    A half loop connecting jump on roller is called a "Euler" (Probably named after the person who made it famous… Please don't let her name have been Beulah). A former world champion lady included a double one in her combination jump and everyone (judges included) was like WTF! T'was wonderful to see. How a about a Pat Lowe, an Owl, LOF Loop jump (landing forward…horrifically hard), and any jump that can be landed on an opposite foot in a combination. I feel it's a whole avenue that hasn't been explored yet.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.