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Ukrainian judge suspended by the ISU for 2 years, subject to appeal

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    ISU Communication No. 1795 Decision of ISU Disciplinary Commission (June 14, 2013): http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=4519
    Link to the Decision of the ISU Disciplinary Commission (May 30, 2013): http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=4520
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  2. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Holding Alex Johnson's Pineapple

    She did herself no favors by trying to weasel out of the meeting. Sheesh.
  3. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

    If you have ever tried to get a visa for a Ukrainian you would know she is most likely no telling a lie. Many athletes from counties like Ukraine and the "Stans"... Miss competitions due to details like that. No excuse for her actions as a judge, but getting visas stinks!
  4. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    Who were the Ukrainians competing at this event?
  5. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  6. Jiro

    Jiro Guest

    It was a female judge who reported her and they were only two others on the panel: Diana Stevens and Kirsten Tillmann. My money is on the British judge.
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    Regardless of whichever of the 2 female judges reported the UKR judge, I'm heartened that she did what she thought was right and that the event referee also did his job! It makes me wonder how many times this kind of scenario might have occurred at international competitions (especially with the Worlds minimum TES scores rising sharply this past season) versus how many times official reports have been filed.
  8. N_Halifax

    N_Halifax Well-Known Member

    Agree with you 100%.
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

    There is definitely some indication in the protocols of Ms. Kruglova propping up the Ukranian team with her marks, particularly in the free skate. I am glad this situation was dealt with responsibly and that the appropriate actions have been taken. Like Sylvia said, the minimum scores to qualify for the "big events" have introduced a whole new realm of cheating and deal making.
  10. analia

    analia Well-Known Member

    Every other judge must be scared to death Studying the result is interesting. Chafik Besseghier from France, for example was getting all 7s in PCS from one judge, who is probably one of the French judges on the panel. Should it be illegal for a judge to prop up his/her country's own skater? It must happen all the time. One the other hand, this brings out the whole controversial "corridor rule".
  11. BreakfastClub

    BreakfastClub Active Member

    This is exactly the argument I've been making for years at the COP defenders who claim that it's harder to cheat under 6.0 and/or "we now know where the scores come from." It is so much easier to cheat under COP. A little extra GOE here, a little extra GOE there, bump the PCS .25 here, .75 there... and voilà! One judge just dishonestly made a significant difference in the overall score. With placements not uncommonly being determined by less than a point or two, one judge can really influence the result. (Unlike under 6.0 where you had to get at least 5 of them to work together :shuffle:)

    Not saying we should go back to 6.0, just saying that COP hasn't done a damn thing to resolve the issue of cheating it just hides it more effectively, which was the ISU's entire rationale for implementing COP in the first place.
  12. tortellini

    tortellini Member

    me too especially with the last few senior ice dance competitions
  13. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

  14. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    Tony makes a very good point about the optics of the very first assignment for a newly un-suspended judge being the most high-profile annual event in the sport.

    Not that the less-visible competitions should become the equivalent of the "naughty chair" for newly-reformed misbehaving judges, but really, the ISU might have given some thought to how this judging assignment might be perceived.
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Proping up your own skater with inflated marks is already against the rules if you do it blatantly enough. I know under 6.0 judges were sometimes suspended for "national bias".

    I don't think this really is a question of corridor marking. They only need to look at how that judge marked his own skater vs how he marked the others. If he is consistently running a point or so higher in his PCS than the other judges, then there is no issue if he also gives his own skater a point or so more. (Well, there may be a re-training issue, but not an ethical one.) I think the ISU does do statistical analyses looking for national bias. I have no idea how far off a judge has to be to raise suspicion.
  16. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    I think it's hilarious when people naively think that COP has eradicated cheating in this sport. Yes, it's rather hard to fake a base value in TES (unless you have a tech caller who isn't making appropriate calls) but everything else can be manipulated very easily. GOE and PCS are still effective tools that can be used to prop up/hold down a skater. And since all of the judging is anonymous it's not like that person has to be held accountable for the marks they gave out.

    No, I don't feel we should go back to 6.0 but this system is far from being even halfway perfect. And to those who think politics don't play into scoring, I submit Exhibit A: Ms. Kruglova. I don't believe for a second that this situation is an anomaly. I'd bet money this happens very frequently...only difference is Kruglova got caught.
  17. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

  18. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

    Amen again......
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    "Harder to cheat" and "No cheating (possible)" are two very different things, and, apart from the ISU, I don't know anyone who claims the latter for CoP. I can't remember anyone here still believing that anonymous judging is a good idea -- some people were willing to give it a chance in the beginning as the lesser of two evils -- and while it's a choice made for the implementation, just as to was for the interim system which didn't even display sets of marks from the same judge, it's by no means intrinsic to the system the way, for example, "Every element score is a combination of base difficulty plus quality of execution" is.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  20. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    I thnk minimums should be abolished. But the rules are the rules and she was properly punished.
  21. 2sk8

    2sk8 Active Member

  22. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    I don't think, in all the my years at FSU, I've seen anyone who has said they think COP has eradicated cheated. :shuffle:
  23. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    Not in those exact words but some people feel it's harder to cheat with COP and to that I say horse poo. There was a very silly poll a while back asking whether or not politics still played a part in scoring and some foolish people actually said they didn't.
  24. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    I would think it would be harder to cheat on the TES than the 6.0 technical mark, simply because there are so many precise rules and criteria, and so many numbers. If someone falls, it is -1, no way to get around that - and that 1 point can make a huge difference in ranking (especially in dance). If a quad is clearly turned into a triple, it doesn't get rewarded as a quad. Sure, there are some inconsistencies, such as how strict the UR calls are. But judges are required to look for UR, which they could easily overlook under 6.0. And GOE. But with all the rules and numbers, I would think it would be very hard for judges to cheat.

    It's easier to show bias with PCS. I found Frank Carroll's comments about Ten's PCS at worlds interesting. There was a substantial increase in his PCS for the LP as compared to the SP, as if the judges just suddenly took notice of him. That's more a matter of perception than intentional cheating, but the same may have been the case for 6.0.

    Perhaps in years to come there will be more rigid criteria for PCS. But even then, folks will find fault with it. No matter what the system, it will favour some skaters over others simply by emphasizing certain things over others or rewarding one thing more than another.
  25. Simone411

    Simone411 Covfefe! FSU Uber fan!

    Yes, it would be nice if under COP or even the 6.0 system back in the day that PCS could be measured by a stopwatch like in Track and Field or even perhaps by a meter that could rate the jumps, spins, footwork ... etc. However, none of that type of technology exists for Figure Skating. Either way, 6.0 or COP, there will be unfair judging, a little cheating with the scores here and there. The problem never really existed with 6.0 or COP. The problem lies with unfair judges. It would be so fabulous if there was a type of technology that existed which could detect unfair cheating judges.
  26. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

    It's not harder to cheat but in the competitions that have more judges it is harder to make that cheating amount to a lot of extra marks for anything for two reasons

    1. The high and low marks get thrown out so you can't be to far out in awarding GOE or the PC's
    2. Because the GOE and the PC's are averaged across the judges that even if you are able to add an extra 1/2 point to each PC you have been able to add 0.36 points, before factoring, to your skaters marks. With the grade of execution you would be adding even less. Marks would have to be very close to make a single judge cheating count

    The only way minor manipulation of the marks would have a major impact at a major international event would be to have a block of judges. At smaller competitions with less judges, minor manipulation of marks would have a much larger impact.
  27. Simone411

    Simone411 Covfefe! FSU Uber fan!

    Thank you for explaining some of this. So at smaller competitions with less judges, there would be a larger impact with just minor manipulation of marks. Very interesting.
  28. aikon

    aikon New Member

    Judging is only anonymous in OWG, ISU Championships, Senior Grand Prix and GP Finals. In all other competitions marks are printed in the actual judges' seating order.
  29. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

    Why do they feel the need to keep judging "only" anonymous at the most important events?
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    But Japanfan, there have been instances under IJS of judges overlooking URs, and cases where skaters have been taken heavily to task for URs that are very borderline or in fact not clearly URs. From comp to comp, it seems to depend a lot on the skater's past rep re UR tendencies, the caller, and the ever ubiquitous skating politics.

    Apparently not that hard. ;)
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013