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U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    That might well be the case, but then the reasoning of the judges was flawed. For the most part, components shouldn't be that much influenced by the technical success in terms of jumps. Max Aaron's energy on the night could help boost his P/E, and likewise the somewhat lackluster performance by Abbot could be reflected in his P/E as well, but things like CH should not in any way beneficiate from a boost just because you landed your jumps, or even had a good night out there, because that's a totally seperate thing to judge

    But let's not compare to Abbott then, let's compare to Johnson who also had a great skate that night, although admitedly not on the same technical level. Of course, Aaron's TES should dwarf that of Johnson, which they duly do by about 15 points. But I don't see how Aaron could be marked above Johnson in any component - skating skills, transitions, P/E, Choreography and Interpretation should all be noted well below, with the component where they would be the closest being P/E, although again, Johnson beats Aaron hands down when it comes to criteria such as "emotional and intellectual involvement", "carriage", "clarity of movement", or "variety and contrast". The judges did have the good sense to award Johnson higher Transitions, but higher CH and IN to Max Aaron make no sense whatsoever. Since I would argue that Johnson's marks on the night were about right, I'd conclude that it was Aaron's which were markedly too high (likewise, they gave higher IN to Aaron compared to Rippon, who also had a great skate - again, I don't quite see how you can defend that based on the criteria that make up the "Interpretation" components)

    For the record, I do agree that Abbott didn't have a great skate that night, and his PCs were about as high as they were going to be anyway and shouldn't have gone any higher for the sake of being "held up" (likewise, I do not think that Abbott deserved the win either). The problem to me is more that Max Aaron's PCs were not just inflated (as are the marks of most skaters who have a clean skate, especially in the context of Nationals, and not just in the US) but unrealistic. You argue that Abbott's PCs "were still about 10 points higher" than Aaron's, but frankly that's not a lot: it merely means that Abbott has on average 1 point more than Aaron in every component (which is barely more than the different that there is currently between Chan/ Takahashi and Fernandez in PCs). Given what we've seen on the ice, I don't think it accurately reflects the distance in terms of components between the two
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  2. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I agree with most of your post. I just wanted to single this out because I do think that "having a good night out there" can affect the execution of the choreography in some ways that would legitimately raise the CH score. E.g., skating with speed and confidence will have a positive effect on ice coverage and on utilization of personal and public space. Being "on" in terms of timing will have a positive effect on phrasing.

    Landing the jumps alone wouldn't affect the choreography, but landing the jumps in time with the music would, and missing the landings will probably lead to getting off the music each time for a few seconds at least.
  3. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I can see your point, although wouldn't falls in that case affect IN instead of CH (CH being really about the structure/ construction of the program whereas IN does include the notion of timing)? It would actually be interesting to find out if there are any guidelines as to how much possible falls on technical elements should be allowed to influence IN or other components really

    That's actually the reason why I brought up the example of Johnson (and Rippon) in this because that allowed me to bring the comparison between two athletes who did execute their program well (Johnson ended up exclusively with positive GOE on all his technical elements), the only major difference technically being the difficulty of the jumps which shouldn't really influence PCs
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    Skate like a man

    Oh how you tried
    To cut me down to size
    by telling dirty lies to my friends
    But my own father
    Said butch it up, don't bother
    The world isn't coming to an end

    He said skate like a man
    Act like youÂ’re straight
    Skate like a man my son
    No poster's worth
    Crawling on the earth
    So skate like a man my son

    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo

    Fine eyed baby
    I don't mean maybe
    We're gonna get along somehow
    Soon you'll be sighing
    On 'count of all your prying
    Oh yeah, just look who's laughing now

    I'm gonna skate like a man
    Fast as I can
    Skate like a man for you
    I'll show the world
    Forget about it girl
    And skate like a man for you

    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo
    (Wop wop wop wop)
    oo woo-oo-oo oo woo-oo-oo

    ChelleC and (deleted member) like this.
  5. toddlj

    toddlj I was an Ashley Wagner fan before it was cool

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Vagabond again."
  6. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

    No matter who won the title, someone would have been whining. The fact is, quad jumps are now getting the value that they deserve, and Max flat out out-jumped everyone. Was he graceful? No. But he has power and can rotate the jumps. He isn't a delicate competitor by any means, so he will likely be solid in competition so long as his technique is sound. He's young, and has plenty of time to develop the other pieces. Isn't it great, though, that Team USA has two men going to the World Championships who can do quads? And looking beyond 2014, we've got Farris, Dornbush, Johnson, Chen, Zhao, and Brown? We are in very good hands with this crop. Personally, I would think that Aaron and Miner will hang around as well, so we could have eight or nine guys who could be good enough to go to the 2018 Games. Exciting stuff!
    peibeck and (deleted member) like this.
  7. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    You're leaving out how he skated. Skaters aren't robots that skate exactly the same from day to day. Aaron was really "on" for the LP and it was reflected in the PCS, as it should be.

    The way some of you are talking, you'd think USFS sat in a back room and decided that Max Aaron was the future of US figure skating and so inexplicably gave him the win regardless of what happened on the ice when what actually happened is that we have a bunch of guys all with different strengths who are capable of scoring in a similar range and the ones with better basics and choreography (but lesser TES) didn't skate their best while Max did. What were the judges supposed to do? Pretend he didn't outskate the others that night because they are positive some other skater is going to somehow score better at Words?

    That might work in some small country that has only 2 or 3 world class skaters and everyone knows who is usually better than whom. In that situation, it might make sense to say that one skater just had an uncharacteristic off night so you are going to send him to Worlds anyway over a skater who placed better that day. But that doesn't work in a country like the US where the field is so much deeper and it's not clear who is better than whom because it kind of depends on the night and the panel and their Fall results don't show a clear hierarchy.

    In the case of the top three finishers at US Nationals, if you look at their Fall results, you have the following:

    Aaron - two Senior Bs, scores from 143.67 -156.58
    Miner - two SGPs, scores from 144.19 - 161.96, one Senior Bs, score 144.35
    Abbott - two SGPs, scores from 133.64 - 146.45

    That doesn't say to me that the judges were insane to send Aaron and Miner over Abbott. We also have Dornbush, Messing, Carriere, Rippon and Mahbanoozadeh scoring in that range during the Fall. So that's EIGHT skaters who could all be considered. Given that, USFS judges would have to be psychics to know who is going to outscore whom on any particular night. Since they aren't psychic, they might as well go by results at Nationals. It's the fairest to the athletes IMO.

    As for Max, his program is designed to maximize the points and he delivers it with panache and he came through at Nationals, which is when it counts. That works for me. I'm glad he's going to Worlds.
  8. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I'd think it would have more of an effect on IN, but could have some effect on CH (i.e., not necessarily none).

    I'm not aware of any official guidelines to that effect.

    We had mandatory fall deductions in ice dance since 1998 Worlds (increasing based on the amount of time it took the couple to resume the dance together), and in all disciplines since ~2005, although they're not huge in magnitude at the senior level.

    There's no distinction there between falls on elements and falls between elements -- for PCS purposes I don't see any reason why there should be.

    What kind of guidelines would be appropriate? Not all falls are equal in their disruptiveness, so it would probably be more fair to leave the effect on the scoring up to each judge's discretion rather than legislating penalties in advance. Something like a written encouragement to reward clean programs and to penalize falls or other disruptive errors, without dictating by how much, might make sense.
  9. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

    With the same coaching team? I shall bite my tongue.
  10. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I don't think it should have any influence at all on CH, but I'm not an ISU judge either :D

    I wasn't thinking of having a strict penalty code, but rather larger guidelines about how much falls or mistakes (stepouts, turnouts, etc) should be allowed to influence scoring in PCs in proportion with other criteria. You're already penalizing the TES, plus the extra penalty for the fall, so I don't think it should be allowed to have much of an influence on CH and Skating Skills, and only some degree of influence in P/E and IN (in case the fall(s) is (are) disruptive enough). There could be a case made for influence on transitions since some could be omitted as a result of the fall as well, although again, I think falls are already penalized enough under the CoP
  11. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    So then you'd like to see guidelines advising judges not to let it affect the PCS, at least not the CH score.

    And other fans have complained that all falls are disruptive by definition and multiple falls increasingly disruptive so there should be increasing penalties to make it less and less likely that even a superior skater could win the more times they fall.

    So no rules will make everyone happy. Might as well just let the judges use their judgment.

    BTW, back at the beginning of IJS ca. 2003-4, there was a guideline to reflect falls in the P/E score, I think specifically 1.0 per fall, but judges clearly weren't doing that consistently, so the ISU instituted the fall deduction instead.
  12. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    Actually I thought I had deleted that last sentence, sorry about that (I will leavet it now or your post would make no sense otherwise ;))

    I mentionned three out of 5 components which I thought could be impacted to some extent, so that's not exactly as if I was dismissing any impact on PCs altogether ;) Just that falls never are relevant towards all the criteria of any component, so it can't have a major impact on any component

    Anyhoo, in order not to perpetuate that discussion on this thread which is probably not very appropriate :lol: I'll just add this: I find the way PCs are attributed in general very frustrating because I think they are often subject to very lazy judging, with not enough effort to distinguish between the various components (you can have a great choreography but average skating skills, for instance, but marks rarely reflect such variations of one skater's skills and rather tend to be fairly close to the median) and of course strange marking altogether. Max Aaron's PCs are one recent obvious example, but that's certainly not the only one, nor is it only a problem at US Nats. Which is why it seems to me that "letting the judges use their judgment" is not currently working. Does that mean more specific guidelines? Or just better education of judges? or less politics? Those are all open questions
  13. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    He has a compressed disk. I have never heard he had a broken back and I went back and read his bio and only the compressed disk was mentioned.
  14. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

    I honestly think that Tom Z should function solely as a jump specialist. He can clearly teach skaters to jump well and consistently, with good technique, and to give credit where credit is due, a lot of those top guys at US nationals learned their jumps from him. He just shouldn't be driving the coaching team, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near choreography and general packaging of a skater.

    Free Max Aaron!
  15. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    He has a compressed disk. I have never heard he had a broken back and I went back and read his bio and only the compressed disk was mentioned.
  16. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    Abbott's Team USA bio on IN mentions that he "Overcame a stress fracture in his lower back during the summer of 2003."

    In Abbott's own words from a Jan. 2004 pre-Nationals interview (he placed 7th in Junior at 2004 Nationals):
    LilJen and (deleted member) like this.
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    If you read my posts you'll see that I absolutely agree he deserved the PCS, and think a conspiracy to have him win is just absurd. I was just wondering if the huge jump in PCS from short to long could be explained by different judges judge differently, since many others don't think it was deserved- clearly, my theory there doesn't work. But I still think he deserved the score. I wasn't there, but watching on TV I thought he had fabulous style. He wasn't a jump robot. Possibly if he was more well known, he would have been scored even better in the short, maybe the actual explanation in the jump is he was held down the previous day...
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Are you married to Elvis Stojko by any chance?

    What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.

    What makes him bad is poor posture. He slouches throughout.

    What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has a certain rhythm. You move to that rhythm. Simple. He doesn't.

    What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has certain character. You move in a way which reflects the character of the music. He does that a little better now than in the past thanks to Camerlengo but is still really lacking in this area.

    Then there's also things like layout of elements on ice, transitions, etc. etc.

    If you actually considered all of the above - which judges should - when giving out PCS, there is absolutely now way he'd ever get high 6s or 8s.

    But back in the real world, PCS are tied to the jumps performed.

    He is a great jumper, that is something nobody can deny. And yes if he skates well, he can place much better than Abbott or Rippon could (I would send Miner and Farris to Worlds though as Marco said).

    But his PCS abilities are not good by any stretch of the imagination.

    Under Tom Zakrajsek?

    Aaron already plans to do 5 quads next season (two in SP and three in FS) and that's the direction he will go into, resulting in multiple injuries that Zakrajsek will ignore and nobody in his team will give a rat's ass about the presentation. That's a much more likely scenario. :p
  19. lahaa968

    lahaa968 Active Member

    Based on the circumstances, Aaron absolutely deserved to win Nationals. Realistically, I don't think he will get anywhere near 79 in PCS at Worlds like he did at Nationals. The jumping and speed was phenomenal, but if you take out all the jumps and spins all there is left are sequences of him snapping his fingers :p

    His presentation abilities will develop with time. He already creates excitement and power with his skating, now all he needs to do is add some choreographic content and get some decent costumes (black spandex body suit for the SP? Blasphemous. Same to the fingerless gloves for the FP:scream:)

    His best shot at making a strong impression at Worlds is skating two clean programs, landing all the quads. Good luck to him. Making Top 10 is possible, but I think Top 12 is more likely.
  20. pinky166

    pinky166 #teamtrainwreck #teamdiva

    Farris may have been given more generous PCS and the edge calls overlooked, doing enough to maybe put him in 2nd, if he had won the JGPF in December and come in with that momentum. I know he had an allergic reaction and was doped on Benadryl during his FS, and even so he didn't have a meltdown, but it's more that, Farris' last performance coming into Nationals was the JGPF where he had just an okay FS and was beaten by Kovtun by 11 points. He was sort of the pleasant surprise to the competition and really stepped it up at Nationals. He had a good fall season, but competing on the JGP, I tend to think it's easy to go unnoticed unless you are stellar. When he had the great FS in Lake Placid and landed the nice quad, there was some buzz, but then while he was good at his second JGP and the JGPF, he was scoring comparably to the other guys in that fairly large list and he wasn't his best at those events, so he got tossed into a a potential guy to add to the mix, but wasn't really drawing much attention like Ross had after winning bronze and beating Fernandez at NHK and even Max who had skated very strong technical programs at sectionals and his senior Bs.

    While I agree Josh is superior to max in most every area despite being three years younger, the reality is his quad is just not that consistent yet, and Max's is, so it makes sense that Max should go to Worlds. Yes, it's true Josh could build up points on spins and maybe get slightly better PCS, but in the end, Max's technical content will more than make up for that if he delivers his programs as planned. Josh could also tweak his FS layout to milk more points out of it if he's really gunning for a Sochi spot now, like by putting 2 combos in the 2nd half of his skate, replace the second 3f with a 3lz to avoid losing points on a potential edge call, and switch the 3f-2t-2lo to 3f-1/2lo-3s and then do a 2a at the end in the place where the 3s is currently. Unless next season he plans to do two quads in his FS in which case the current layout would be fine. He's a great talent with a bright future, but I do understand why he wound up 4th even after such a great FS - if the quad isn't a sure thing, most guys try to compensate by backloading their combos and doing 3-1/2 lo-3 combos as the 3 jump combinations which opens up jumping passes to do a 2a or two.

    Another thing, while Farris' artistry is good considering his age, he's barely 18 and skates like it, there's lots of artistic potential and he is improving steadily in that area, but his international PCS are on par with the likes of Dornbush and Rippon, not even quite Miner level, so he doesn't have the Jeremy advantage in that regard yet. Plus rushing him out to senior Worlds after, from what I can tell, the USFS talked him into staying on the JGP this season, it would just be confusing and deliver mixed messages. Plus I also wonder if there's maybe some fear that if Farris were to go to Worlds and wind up beating Miner there, if that could hurt Miner's reputation in a way, just where Ross and Joshua are kind of similar skaters in that they are similar in their classical style, build, workhorse mentality, well-rounded skating, as well as being a bit white bread for now. Ross is the go-to guy and you don't want some 18 year old hurting that reputation of his, with Jeremy, Ross and Jeremy are such different types of skaters, and the same goes for Max and Ross, so I wouldn't imagine the same kind of fears would exist. So Max really is the best choice for Worlds given how Jeremy skated.
  21. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Active Member

    I still don't get why Jeremy didn't do a 3 jump combo. Was he not planning to do one? He left 2 points on the table by not adding another double toe onto one of his combinations. That 2 points for the omitted double toe would have given him enough for second place and the world team. Jeremy Abbott is sitting at home instead of going to worlds because he forgot/ didn't plan to do a double toe. That's crazy.
  22. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    He was planning to do a triple lutz+triple toe loop+ double loop followed by a triple loop and a triple salchow after the step sequence. Instead, he did a triple lutz + triple toe loop, a double loop + double toe loop and a double salchow after the salchow.

  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    I believe Abbott's planned jumps were not updated with the new jump layout for Nationals:

    Planned Jumps (GP season) --> Executed Jumps (Nationals)
    Triple Lutz --> Quad Toeloop (under-rotated)
    Quad Toeloop --> Triple Lutz
    Triple Flip --> Triple Axel + Double Toeloop
    Triple Axel --> Triple Axel
    Triple Axel+Double Toeloop --> Triple Flip
    Triple Lutz+Triple Toeloop+Double Loop --> Triple Lutz + Triple Toeloop
    Triple Loop --> Double Loop + Double Toeloop
    Triple Salchow --> Double Salchow

    ETA: Here are the jumps he did in his last practice run through the day before the FS:
    4T fall, 3Lz, 3A2T, stopped for a bit, 3A, 3F, 3Lz2T2T, 2Lo, 3S2T

    He mentioned the doubled Salchow in his press conference but not the doubled loop that proved costly as well.
  24. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Well, not really. He won because his PCS relative to other competitors was not right. Whether he makes a better bet at top ten at Worlds is another question really.
  25. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Well, Flatt's flip / lutz technique absolutely hurt my soul. Aaron's and Bradley's jumps didn't have the same nice form as those of Abbott's, Mroz' and Farris'.
  26. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member


    I watched the skate after I knew he won and got comparable PCS to Farris. I kept looking for him to do something with his blades. There's not much blade work in the program at all except during the steps and even so, the blade work was not well done. There's little one foot skating or change in direction. He was fast but it was more like bullying across the ice instead of the way a Gordeeva or Kwan would move.

    His choreographer really needs to find ways to showcase his strength in PCS (or at least hide his weaknesses) instead of just having too many finger snapping moments.

  27. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Except Farris was getting those PCS in junior competitions which generally give out lower PCS. I will bet if you put him up against the other guys at the same senior international competition, his PCS will come out ahead for simiar performances.

    And your second point is exactly why I think USFS was stupid to hold him back in international juniors this season. They thought it's already too crowded on top and Farris and Brown are better served staying in juniors. However, besides Miner, none of the big boys have consistently delivered solid performances this season. Their bet on Dornbush (and Mroz a few years back) just didn't materialize like they thought it would and now it's too late to consider Farris because he didn't even do senior GPs. At least Aaron did some senior internationals.

    Still, I think Farris and Miner would serve US men's team well with keeping the 2 spots and a great developmental plan for next season and especially for post-Sochi.
  28. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

    I think all nations should thank those judges to have selected for the second time the worst possible winner. Or maybe it's a russian's conspiracy to ensure the win in Sochi ah ! :p -in case noone understood : I'm joking.

  29. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Fernandez too needs quite a few cross-overs to generate speed and he doesn't even generate the same amount of speed as Aaron. Does Fernandez have deep edges as opposed to Aaron's shallow edges? Is Fernandez a better skater than Aaron or just a better packaged skater?

    But I got to say Fernandez is quite a phenom in figure skating because he moved from a PC mark of 82 at the GPF up to a PC mark of 89 at Europeans in a matter of just six weeks or so while his technical score was pretty much the same at both competitions. If he keeps up the good work at this pace, I can easily see him beating the likes of Chan and Takahashi next season.;)

    If Max Aaron was overscored on the components at Nationals and I suppose he was, does anyone honestly believe Jeremy Abbott would score internationally as high as 88+ for his LP performance at the Omaha Championships?

    As far as Ross Miner goes:
    NHK this season - Free Skate TES - 86.74; PCS - 75.22.
    2013 Nationals - TES - 86.08; PCS - 84.22

    Assuming the US judges were consistent in inflating Miner's PC and Aaron's PC by a similar number of points, one could easily conclude international judges might well give Max a PC mark of around 71 for his free skate at Nationals and why wouldn't they so long as a slow and messy Verner who popped just about all his jumps at Europeans could score around 71 on the program components?

    Re Elvis Stojko, is he by any chance the guy who won 3 world titles and 2 Olympic silver medals back in the nineties? If it's him, what's so bad about being married to Stojko? He is a big name in figure skating.
  30. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Just rewatched Ross and Max's LPs. Notice that neither did a 3 jump combo. Would they consider doing them after the 1st 3x? 3x-2t-2t after their 1st 3x respectively. They are going to need every point available to them at Worlds.