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U.S. Ladies [#6]: "Swaggering with the S'Wagner" et al. into 2013

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 25, 2012.

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  1. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    I thought that you are off on some of the yrs and I never remember any Angela hype.
  2. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

    Yes. Because every other woman in that competition woke up Saturday morning and said, "I totally don't want to skate with poise and without errors tonight. I'm not in the mood. I hope I can totally f*ck up my free skate". :rolleyes:
  3. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

    ^^ Everyone obviously wanted to do their best, but she seemed to be the only one who did.
  4. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    It does sound arrogant, but I really don't think she meant it like that. She probably meant it more like "We all deserve to be on the podium together" or something like that.

    This situation kind of reminds me of when Tara said something like "skaters who are beneath me". Just an innocent comment that came out the wrong way.
  5. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    I've had to speak to the media a few times. It's horrifying to read quotes in print, stripped of the conversation's context, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. I never knew there were so many ways to interpret comments!

    She gets a pass, she's 17 and she's got 1/2 the world telling her she's Queen of USA. If she's at all "herself" in 2 months, I'll be very, very impressed and happy.
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  6. TheGirlCanSkate

    TheGirlCanSkate Well-Known Member

  7. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

    You said the others were not "willing" to do their best. That is absurd.
  8. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

    I guess she didn't want to do her best in the SP.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  9. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

    Not so clear to me. Sorry, I'm not buying this. Hicks' jumps, for example, are just as good, if not better, as I said before. But, for whatever reason, Gold is the only one being hyped ridiculously..................Also I don't think anyone on this board "hates" her.....geeeeez....
  10. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

    If you watched the practices at all, you'd see how much easier it was for Gracie to land clean triple triples than the rest of the pack, including Courtney. Gold doing a cheated one in the SP was a fluke, while Courtney's was just as she had practiced
  11. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Except in the SP when she fell on her combo, popped another jump and still managed to receive HUGE PCS scores. Mirai should have scored through the rough in comparison as she DID obviously want to 'do her best'. :rolleyes:

    And ALL the top girls, not just Gold, had great practices. The videos are online if you want to re-watch them. None of the girls performing triple-triples seemed to be struggling with them or completing them with any less effort than Gold including Agnes Z, Mirai, Gao, and Hicks. It didn't look any easier for her than Agnes Z. or Hicks especially. They're all big jumpers. And Nagasu was nailing some great ones in practice too.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  12. lahaa968

    lahaa968 Active Member

    ...Huge PCS? She scored around 26 for PCS...pretty fair IMO.
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    Whether you argue that Gold was over-scored by the US judges at Nationals, the US judges were right in line with international judges when it came to comparing similar programs:

    Skate Canada SP: 3T/3F< with "e", 2A with -3 GOE across the board, fall, a L1 combo spin.
    Base TES: 29.03. Actual TES: 27.53. Avg. PCS: 6.42​
    US Nationals FS: 3T/3F<, 1A, fall, L4 combo spin.
    Base TES: 27.70. Actual TES : 28.74. Avg. PCS: 6.46.​

    Just about identical scoring between US and international judges for similar performances.

    Rostelecom Cup FS: edge calls on both 3F's with -GOE on both, -GOE on doubled the Lo and Lz and singled the Lo in three -jump combo, -GOE on the 2Lo, but L4 spins, L3 steps, the better of her GP FS,
    Base TES: 50.18. Actual TES: 54.77. Avg PCS: 7.26.​
    US Nationals FS: Landed the 3Lo and 3Lz instead of doubling, replaced solo 3F with 3S, did 3/2/2 and 2A/3T with lots of GOE.
    Base TES: 60.31. Actual TES: 70.11. Avg PCS 7.67.​

    For the elements she had in common in both the RC and US Nationals, here are the comparisons:

    RC 11.5 (+1.4 GOE, 1-1, 1-3, 7-2's).
    USN: 11.9 (+1.8 GOE, 4-2's, 5-3's)​

    RC: 4.09 (+.79 GOE)
    USN: 3.8 (+.5 GOE)​

    L4 Layback Spin:
    RC: 3.7 (+1 GOE)
    USN: 3.49 (+.79 GOE)​

    L4 Flying Combo Spin:
    RC: 3.79 (+.79 GOE)
    USN: 3.71 (+.71 GOE)​

    L1 CH Sequence
    RC: 2.6 (+.6 GOE)
    USN: 2.7 (+.7 GOE)​

    L4 Change Foot Combo Spin
    RC: 4.43 (+.93 GOE)
    USN: 4.43 (+93 GOE)​

    For the five elements that both FS's had in common, there is a marginal difference in scoring. In fact, the international judges gave Gold a slight .08 margin.

    There was one element called higher at USN:

    Step sequence:
    RC: L3, 3.8 (+.5 GOE), 8-1's, 1-2.
    USN: L4, 4.8 (+.9 GOE), 6-1's, 3-2's.​

    Between the level upgrade and increase in GOE, she gained an extra point from the US judges.

    The substantial difference in score between the RC and USN FS was technical, i.e., the five jump elements that were not in common to both programs. Just doing the math on the downgrades jumps, Gold lost 8.63 in base right there. In RC, she had -GOE on three of the five, and three of the five were unintentional downgrades, with the 2Lo being both. That's a lot of points left on the table, as well as a negative against the overall quality of the program's jumps. At USN, she landed all five beautifully, although the US tech panel and judges might very well have missed the edge call on the solo 3F combo, for which she got .1 GOE.

    Still, at RC, she did receive a 9% bump over base TES, while at USN, she received a 16% bump over base TES, for a program that was 20% harder, and 95% of the increase in difficulty was due to the increased jump value. For a substantially better executed and more difficult program -- I don't hear anyone arguing that Gold was Mao Asada or Carolina Kostner at RC -- she received a bump of, on average, .4 per PCS, or 3.25 additional PCS in total, after the 1.6 factor for the Ladies' FS.

    To recap, at worst the US technical panel may have over-leveled Gold's step sequence by .5 and missed an edge call on a 3F, and the US judges may have been a little overenthusiastic about the five jumps elements that weren't in common, and for which we have no international panel scores to which to compare. About the .4/ea bump in PCS Gold received from the US judges for a superior program, it's half of the PCS bump Wagner got from international judges on average between her GP's last year and her 4C's FS, and twice what Wagner got between her GP's and Worlds, and it's a quibble over very few points in the big picture. If the three points were removed, and the .5 for the step sequence and another point for the edge call, Gold still would have won silver.

    As for whether other skaters were robbed, I'll leave that to people who've watched all the programs, but the US judges were firmly in the corridor with the international judges when scoring Gold, and the technical panel was fairly close with their international peers.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
    toddlj and (deleted member) like this.
  14. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

    I watched the practices in person. Many of Courtney and Mirai's attempts were cheated, while Gao and Zawadzki were successfully doing the easier 3t+3t combination. No question to me that Gold finishes her rotation further from the ice on the triple triple than the rest of the girls.
  15. b-man

    b-man Well-Known Member

    Nagasu finished 8th in GP standings, ahead of Agnes and Gold, and her combined scores were ahead of Gao, Agnes, and Gold. Gao had a relatively easy draw at Skate America where she got her silver. I don't agree that Nagasu's early season paled in comparison with Gao, Agnes and Gold. Her international SB is still ahead of all three.
  16. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Imo it was too high. Any newbie other than Gracie would have scored much lower imo.
  17. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

  18. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Let's just be happy that we have skaters now that can land 3-3 combo's and most all of them are the younger ladies who have long careers ahead of them. If for no other reason i hope Yuna comes back so we don't see 4 triples win a World championship. There's no excuse for the women to regress technically while the Men push themselves.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  19. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

    I'll be happy when all of the younger skaters now that can land 3-3 combo's are rewarded, as they should have been at Nationals. Not just a chosen one.....
  20. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    3-3 combos called clean at Nationals:
    3Lz+3T+2T: Wang (FS; 11.40 BV, 12.60 points)
    3Lz+3T Gold (FS; 10.10 BV, 11.90 points)
    3F+3T: Hicks (FS; 9.40 BV, 11.20 points)
    3T+3T: Zawadzki (FS; 8.20 BV, 9.50 points); SP: Zawadzki (10.00 points), Nagasu (9.50 points), Gao (9.40 points)

    Peter Oppegard spoke out about Caroline Zhang's 3Lo<+3Lo<< SP combo (Base Value reduced to 5.40, she received 3.80 points for it): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130201&content_id=41323082&vkey=ice_news
    Besides Zhang's SP combo, 3-3 combos called underrotated (<) or downgraded (<<) by the technical panel:
    3F+3T< in SP: Hicks, Gold (also received edge call)
    3T+3T< in SP: Siraj
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    I replied to FSWer's question asking about online profiles for the Senior ladies shown on NBC's live Nationals broadcast and thought I would copy over their Team USA profile links and include links to their respective Twitter pages and official sites if they have them.

    1st: Ashley Wagner Team USA profile / Twitter / Official Site
    2nd: Gracie Gold profile / Twitter / Official Site (started in October 2012 but has not been updated since then)
    3rd: Agnes Zawadzki profile / Twitter / Official Site
    4th: Courtney Hicks profile / Twitter (Official Site currently not up at this time)
    5th: Christina Gao profile / Twitter / Official Site
    6th: Yasmin Siraj profile (updated after Nationals)
    7th: Mirai Nagasu profile / Twitter / Official Site
    8th: Samantha Cesario profile / Twitter
    9th: Angela Wang profile / Twitter
    10th: Hannah Miller profile / Twitter / Official Site
    11th: Caroline Zhang profile / Twitter (she hasn't tweeted since August 2012) / Fan Site
    12th: Ashley Cain profile / Twitter / Official Site
    Not shown on NBC:
    13th: Kiri Baga profile / Twitter / Official Site (last updated April 2011)
    14th: Haley Dunne Twitter
    15th: Joelle Forte profile (not fully updated; her Twitter is set to private)
    16th: Becky Bereswill profile / Twitter / Official Site (last updated June 2011)
    17th: Amanda Hofmann
    18th: Sophia Adams Twitter
    19th: Morgan Bell Twitter
    20th: Laney Diggs profile (not fully updated) / Twitter
    Withdrew from 2013 Nationals due to injury:
    Vanessa Lam profile
    Leah Keiser profile / Twitter / Official Site

    Top 4 Juniors at 2013 Nationals:
    Polina Edmunds (no Team USA profile yet; SpicySk8er is her Twitter handle but she has yet to tweet)
    Mariah Bell profile (Sk8rbell2 is her Twitter handle but she has yet to tweet)
    Barbie Long profile / Twitter
    Karen Chen profile / Official Site (includes videos of her 2013 Nationals programs)

    Morgan Bell tweeted this photo of herself with her younger sister, Mariah, today captioned "What I live with....." :lol:: http://twitter.com/Sk8rbell1/status/297424564307243008/photo/1
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  23. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member


    Something I missed initially with all of the bs judging going on at Nationals, but...

    Why weren't the judges tripping over their feet to move Angela Wang way up after her fantastic freestyle, as they did for Gracie?!

    both Angela and Gracie screwed up in the short....

    Why isn't Wang being sent to Junior Worlds?! She was in the JGP final!

    It's mind-boggling politics.......................
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    Gold had already received the same PCS from the international judges at a GP for a program with similar mistakes, the newbie part is irrelevant.
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    While Wang's base was three points less than Gold's, her score over base was less than three points more. Wang received 1.2 GOE on her first two jumping passes, so it was not as if USFS was trying to dump her, but she fell on an underrotated 3S, which wiped out 2.10 of her positive GOE earned on other elements, in addition to the fall deduction, as well as receiving -GOE for two other jump elements, the 3Lo and the 3Lz/2T combination. She also had one L3 spin, as opposed to all L4 spins. The FS is long, and the skater has to deliver throughout to earn the TES and for the judges to trip over their feet to move her up.

    Hicks was the only skater above Wang to have an almost clean program technically; she had-GOE on a downgraded combo (1Lo to start).

    The four of seven skaters above Wang (59.71) who were lower in TES were Wagner (57.45), Gao (59.30), Cesario (58.59), and Zawadzi (54.18). Wagner, Gao, and Zawadzki got substantially higher PCS, and Wang's 53.99 were the lowest of the top 8, with Juniors Hicks (54.58), Cesario (55.82), and Siraj (56.95) behind all of the Seniors in the Top 8, just below Senior Gao's 58.24, the lowest of the Seniors. (Below Wang, Junior Miller [55.20] and Senior Nagasu [60.56] were higher in PCS, while Zhang [53.62] was lower.)

    Gold's and Wagner's PCS were in line with what they received at international competitions for similar programs. I haven't looked at Zawadzki's or Gao's scores from GP's to compare.
  26. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Agreed on this. As much as I love skaters like Kostner it troubles me when 4 triple programs beat those who skate light's out 7 triple programs with good artistic presentation. I don't mind if she beats someone who's basically just a good jumper with so-so presentation though and not much going on in between.
  27. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    I don't look to other competitions because all the best skaters weren't at the same competition during the GPs. Mark my words, if Gold and Wagner too for that matter make similar mistakes at Worlds they are NOT going to be held up in PCS scores as they were at Nationals. Ashley might get some benefit of the doubt but not Gracie. I hope I'm wrong though if such a disaster should happen.
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    Then on the basis of all of the PCS criteria do you think Gold was so over-marked, since part of your argument is that she won't receive the same consideration from the international judging panel when she already has for a flawed performance? Last I saw, the only formidable international (Senior) competition Gold had at USN was Wagner and Zawadzki, and neither Kim nor Asada nor Kostner were in Omaha.

    If it's the field you're so concerned about, then the field at Skate Canada, where Gold (3F/3T<, e) placed 9th in the SP with PCS of 25.66, and which included Gedevanishvili (3Lz/3T<), Osmond (3T/3T), Makarova (3T/3T), Murakami (3T/3T<), Tuktamysheva (3T/3T), Lacoste, and C. Zhang was surely at least as strong as the field at US Nationals, given the high PCS that Gedevanishvili, Makarova, Tuktamysheva, and Murakami had received in the past. Why should Gold receive any less PCS at US Nationals for a program that was comparable in a comparable (at best) field?

    At Rostelecomm, where she led after the SP, the field included Korpi, Sotnikova, Leonova, Murakami, as well as her peers at US Nats, Zawadzki and Zhang. Hardly a weaker field than at USN.

    Wagner, BTW, was given higher PCS for a lesser performance in the SP at 2012 Worlds -- she was 8th, and didn't even skate in the last group -- than she was for stronger performances in GP's, when the entire field wasn't there, either.

    What the data shows is that PCS isn't dropped, but the PCS for the Asadas, Korpis,
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  29. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    If Wagner can at least hang on to 5th then Gold can be 8th which is theoretically very much within her capability.

    I actually would not be surprised, however, to see Gold be the higher finisher (perhaps 4th or 5th if she really delivers), and since Wagner has had a couple of rough FSs lately, if it happens to her again she'll probably be in the 6th-8th range.

    Realistically, though - Gold is 1 for 3 in the short (and the free), so the odds are not good. She's just GOT to hit that short program, because if not, all bets are off. Just like Czisny last year...

    Above all, though....STAY HEALTHY. PLEASE. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL.
    Coco and (deleted member) like this.
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    First things first: If Gold does well at 4C's, she could earn enough WS points to at least be in the 13-15 WS group going into Worlds, drawing for one of the last three places in Group 3. Regardless of how she skates the SP, she is likely to be scored better than if she drew for the 1st or 2nd spot overall.
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