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U.S. Ladies [#16]: We Are the Ladies Who Flutz

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Vagabond, Nov 21, 2016.

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  1. Willin

    Willin Well-Known Member

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    @Weve3 Did you read anything after that? These judges are not told to manipulate results, they are not advised at all, they are not well connected with USFSA leadership. There is no reason they would have any idea what USFS's agenda is or what results/placement USFS wants them to make.
     
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  2. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Fickle indeed. It seems you are only as good as your last event and somehow that should decide how you placed a few weeks ago and what will happen in the future. :lol: :wall:
     
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  3. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I read it. A doozy!

    I am not trying to be snarky with you or to give you a hard time, but we are now crossing over into Pollyanna territory, here.

    TBH, there are plenty of :sekret: and :judge: who would like to back up your statement/post, but plenty of them simply cannot -- with a good conscience, anyway. Glad that you know a few who do believe and feel this way, but rose-colored glasses tend to have that effect. Ignorance is bliss.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
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  4. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Polina's FS last year was Gone with the Wind, right? I can't call any performance of that dreary program "lights out" even with all the jumps landed. Her SP however was great, I seem to remember. Anyway this convo has totes run its course.

    Congrats to Angela Wang for winning the SP at Bavarian! She hit 3f-3t, 2ax, and 3loop with lots of positive GOE's everywhere.

    http://eiskunstlauf.bev-eissport.de/BO2017/BO2017_SeniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf
     
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  5. AngieNikodinovLove

    AngieNikodinovLove Well-Known Member

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    LOL, you made me laugh. Polina did good technically but the program was still in junior territory.
     
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  6. Willin

    Willin Well-Known Member

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    @Weve3 And how many judges who have judged at Nationals do you know?
    And how do you know I can't tell someone I've known well for 10+ years is lying or withholding information?

    And how is telling honest information being a Pollyanna?
     
  7. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    More than a few. ;)
    I am not suggesting that the people or judge(s) that YOU know are lying or withholding information, not at all.

    Your initial post came across as a blanket statement that suggested ALL U.S.A. judges are free from influence from the USFSA or otherwise, which simply (and sadly) is just not true. Thus, the Pollyanna reference.
     
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  8. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    Not sure what skating environment you are referencing, @Willin, but your comment...
    "The judges that judge nationals, are for the most part, judges that are not influenced by USFSA leadership or even heavily connected to them."......
    is not particularly accurate. Judges build their resumes over time, and as a result, build relationships with skaters and their coaches (as well as USFS staff) Many of the judges on the panels at US Nationals are very engaged in, and invested in the success of the skaters that compete there i.e. politics. USFS does a lot more monitoring of programs now than ever, and as a season builds, the "buzz" about a skater/program builds, as many of the judges critique programs for skaters thru out the season. You are mistaken if you do not think the judges are not invested in the results at US Nationals, and do all they can to politic, and this especially escalates as the Olympic quadrennial plays out. Politicking is part and parcel of this sport, and subtle score manipulation does take place. Don't fool yourself.

    The second part of this is.... US National score inflation has gotten ridiculous IMO, so much so, that many skaters begin to believe the hype around their US nationals scores, and don't understand why their scores internationally do not measure up.

    It comes down to education, and the US panels of judges and tech panels turn blind eyes to < and << and jack up PCS when they know darn well, the UR and PCS won't stand up to the higher international standards. USFS Elite coaching team (i.e. Mitch Moyer and team) should really sit down with their ISP skaters and coaches at Champs Camp and go over videos of jumps (nationals and international competitions) and show the athletes why they get < and << at international events, juxtapositsioned to US events.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I think it's possible to have Nationals inflation and not manipulate the results. I think it happens when Nationals judges give skaters the PCS and GOEs that should be due them based on the criteria, but which they don't and won't get at international events for a number of reasons. The lesson is not always that they are inflated, but that the skaters shouldn't expect to replicate them at 4C's, Worlds, or even a spring international.

    As far as the tech panel who are lenient at Nationals, they should be replaced, IMO.

    Unless we weren't impressed by Karen Chen in the first place. My caveat is that I didn't see it live, and there may have been something the camera didn't capture.
     
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    IMO, if Karen didn't deserve higher PCS and GOE then most of her competitors should had their scores decrease as well. The thing with PCS is that people want the National judges to replicate exactly what the skaters received all season internationally no matter if the performances were different (and we all know PCS does increase or decrease depending) or if the judges at Nationals should use their own judgment. We've seen cases with skaters who skated better than they had before receive higher scores than they received before and then replicate a similar performance internationally afterwards and see those PCS and GOE catch up. I mean how many times did I have to read that Nathan will never hit over a 100 in the SP with a performance that was similar to Nationals or that his PCS at 4CC won't be close to what he got at Nationals. Of course, some times that doesn't happen either.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
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  11. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    IMO Karen did not deserve to win Nationals at all. How Wagner with much higher base value and deservedly higher PCS lost skating cleanly is ridiculous. Chen did nothing to deserve that overall huge GOE edge, even if her spins are better. And that isnt even factoring in the downgrades she should have gotten, but didnt get. And I agree with your inflation being relative, but Chen's scores were much more inflated than Wagner or Bell for instance. We saw Wagner get a 142 LP at worlds with 2 or 3 jump mistakes, she could get scores like Nationals internationally easily for the same skates she had this year, while Chen would be nowhere close. Bell would have an easier time getting those scores internationally for the same skates too, while say Nagasu in the SP would be nowhere close. So they are not being consistent, even in a relative sense.

    We all know Nationals is about favortism though. Clean Cohen would have beaten clean Kwan at every Nationals from 2003-2006, maybe even 2000 and 2002 too, even though Kwan was really the better skater all those years minus probably 2006, and maybe 2005 (under IJS for sure Cohen but Nationals was under 6.0). And that is Kwan who is even a biased USFSA favorite, the insanely overrated and perennialy non producing Cohen was just even more of one. Clean Harding could never beat clean Yamaguchi or even clean Kerrigan at Nationals despite that her 91 Nationals LP deserves to beat anything either ever did other than maybe Yamaguchi at 92 Nationals, and even then no since she didnt connect the triple lutz-triple toe. She couldnt even beat 89 Yamaguchi with a clean skate, when Kristi had little baby jumps and horrible artistry. Debi Thomas was heavily favored at Nationals over people like Chin, Trenary, Kadavy who had harder jumps and better artistry, while the USFSA marketed the positive feel good story of her being the first black (as they put it, I personally think it sounds bit racist but I am just using the common term they used in fluffies and press releases) to be on top of U.S skating. Wagner has never been a USFSA favorite, the USFSA adores Gold and Chen, so she can never win Nationals unless those girls mop up the ice, maybe add Nagasu to that. That an interntional judge panel would have Wagner clearly ahead and probably by a large margin for the same skates is meaningless, politics and USFSA likes Chen better much more.
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    For being a favorite, funny how Chen's exquisitely skated SP at Nationals only scored a little over a point higher than that mess of a 4CC skate in front of an international panel in PCS. Ashley is one of those skaters where people disagree whether she is a USFS favorite or not. I personally think she's a favorite overall and does get the benefit of doubt but there are other skaters some judges may prefer, so they score a bit higher when they and Ashley skate similarly.
     
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  13. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    Spot-on, again! (y) USFS could not have said it better! :lol:
     
  14. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    There, I fixed it for you. I won't get into the konspiracy about USFS influencing judges :blocjudge

    I don't think being beaten by Karen at Nationals matters in the slightest. Ashley was third at last year's Nationals and then won the World silver medal. Dance, OTOH ... it seems like no team can ever make a leap over another team internationally unless they do it at Nationals first.
     
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  15. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    It does not, correct. And, if I might add, it was not necessary for AW or GG to win this season’s national title to 'save' U.S. ladies' figure skating, as both ladies have been splitting the national title between themselves for the entire quad, until now and the discipline is still lagging behind. Winning one's national title is not necessarily a golden pass to international success. Ashley, Gracie, Karen, Mirai, Mariah, etc. need to deliver internationally, not come into an international competition as their country's champ.

    On an unrelated note, I love how fans try to strip and reassign medals and titles when their favorites do not win. Such a bad habit!

    ETA: Actually, since we do have some posters suggesting that KC should not have won the national title, I guess it would not be on an unrelated note, after all. However, it is still a bad habit, a very bad habit to downgrade a skater's victory because the results were not personally pleasing to the disgruntled fan. Most unfortunate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    The only time I remember that happening was with Belbin/Agosto v. Lang/Tcherneshev at 2003 4CC and Worlds. It probably helped that L/T skipped the GP series that season while B/A were building up an international reputation that season and that B/A had a small stumble during the circular footwork sequence at Nationals.

    Speaking of, I have no memories of the 2008-2009 season at all, what were people thinking going into 2009 Worlds regarding Davis/White v. Belbin/Agosto. They had no head-to-heads all season until Worlds.
     
  17. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    Judges are human, they are not as pure as the wind-driven snow, nor are they the devil incarnate :EVILLE: but come on, let's not pretend that they are totally unbiased robots who simply show up, clock in and judge every competition uninformed and ignorant as to which skaters the USFSA would like to see on their teams.
     
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

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    Just a friendly suggestion ... If people really want to continue discussing judging and selection politicking beyond the U.S. ladies, feel free to revive this relevant thread: U.S. Figure Skating Announces World, Four Continents and World Junior Teams

    ETA:
    AND she skated first in the field of 27!

    Re-posting from the Bavarian Open competition thread (thanks, @Debbie S!):
    Good comeback by Huang to win the FS after being 10th in the SP (though she was only just over 3 points from 3rd after the SP).
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  19. Willin

    Willin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they don't come in unbiased, but I think their biases are their own, NOT USFSA's. Lots of the judges/coaches/skaters I know hate Ashley Wagner's skating - they think she's rated too high by international judges and other US judges. Obviously, some US judges disagree. Last I heard, one national judge loves Jason Brown, but would mark him down due to the lack of a quad (but would mark down Nathan as well for SS). One Dance judge I knows hates the Shibutanis for some reason, but doesn't see any downside to C/B. Of course some have opinions that fit with the Nationals results.

    Personal experience might also play a role - some judges might be more susceptible to the reaction of the crowd, some might know one skater much better than the others (and be nicer/meaner accordingly), and some judges are just more picky than others. If you look at the judge results on the detailed protocol, you can see that some judges just have different aesthetics or preferences. For instance (via Skating Protocol) - US FD results, Nathan Chen's PCS, and the Pair's FS. I think if all the judges were consistent in boosting certain skaters while marking other skaters down, I'd be more likely to believe that USFS was influencing rankings despite what I've heard.
     
  20. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    You've touched on many valid points re the bias that does exist. The sport is subjective despite attempts of well-meaning posters who like to suggest that the CoP make this impossible. Also, judges for U.S based comps like nationals are in simpatico with the USFSA and vice versa.

    At the end of the day, topics like this usually end on an agree to disagree note.

    Speaking of getting back on topic (per request via @Sylvia) I think Mirai should break out the 3A in her FS @ 4CC. :cheer2: She has nothing to lose if she really wants to go for it.
     
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  21. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I agree mirai has nothing to lose and expect her to skate well since the podium is within reach but has no cushion to protect. I honestly don't know how well the 3x is going in practice to say if she should go for it or not though.

    All the US ladies seem to be suffering from the same -itis at the moment: if they bomb the sp they get fired up to skate lights out in the LP, and if they place well in the sp then tend to bungle the LP a bit. I expect some strong skates today to follow those "worrying" SPs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Congrats to Mirai on her THIRD medal at 4CCs!! And a PB in the LP!
     
  23. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan A proud P/C fan

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    So , let not waste any time, will US retain 3 spots for next Olympics. :watch:
     
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  24. Jarrett

    Jarrett Firebird for worlds!

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    Not likely.
     
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  25. Catherine M

    Catherine M Well-Known Member

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    The pollyanna in me says: there's a chance

    Eville me says: only if there is a mass outbreak of flu to Team Russia, Japan, Canada, Italy
     
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  26. Jarrett

    Jarrett Firebird for worlds!

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    New PB overall too!!
     
  27. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    My guess is no. :(
     
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  28. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan A proud P/C fan

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    US should be Ok even with 2 spots, excellent chance foe both girls to pick a medal in Team event. If you don't get the spot, it means the same as Russia having one spot for men's event at 2014 games, or girls with 2 spots... that didn't hurt their chance...
     
  29. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Wait.. Osmund fell 4 times and still beat Bell?!? What was all that neg goe about? Is katelyn the female Patrick?
     
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  30. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    Somewhat typical 4CC, delivering slightly unexpected results, but thrilled for Mirai! WTG! :)
     
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