Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Apr 19, 2012.
does K-O's Carmen include moves from modern dance, in your opinion?
i've read that Dean had a big influence on ice dance, like, 'he created what we know as ice dance' or something. is it true? do you think that teams of the 90's copied T/D?
Copied? Maybe not. Influenced by? Probably. Benefited from how T&D advanced the sport in a few short years? Absolutely.
in what ways did the advance it?
I can easily list think of non-Russian dance pairs, shooting up quickly though you might argue on their skating skills and if it was justified.
One of my favourite competitions too!
it's interesting to see how Russian dance became after the greats. Navka/Kostomarov and Domnina/Shabalin look the same to me. a skating that wants to be grand, but comes off cold or even empty in its virtuosism. dont know if its the COP...i.e., less freedom. and it seems a steady decline.
Not to take anything away from great champions Linichuk and Karponosov, but in 1980, a gold medal winning program looked like this. The program was a series of dissimilar dances pasted together to show mastery over all styles. (I must admit I giggled uncontrollably back in 1980 when I saw this great Soviet team segue into what passed for a hoedown dance!)
Even Torvill & Dean's dance was very traditional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzeqrQGye_U
Two short years later, Torvill & Dean ignored the prevailing rules and introduced this program - not traditional dance at all, but a program with a theme and creative, unique moves that supported that theme. Mack and Mabel
In 1983, they ignored the rules again, and armed with a great deal of research, created together with Barnum star Michael Crawford the remarkable Barnum program. There are moments in this program that they move as two interlocking pieces of machinery, the moves are so complicated. One definitely feels as if they are attending a circus when they watch this. And of course, they shock everyone with the back flip. (As a side note, some of these moves come directly from the stage musical Barnum Incredible!)
And there was 1984's masterpiece, Bolero. They received criticism for this dance because they used not traditional dance music, but classical music with no discernable dance beat, and the rhythm of the music was pretty much the same throughout the program.
There were other programs of course, like the 1984 paso doble OSP where Jane actually "became" a matador's cape. No one had seen ice dance like this before, and if weren't for them, we wouldn't have had Klimova and Ponomarenko's Bach program, or the Carmens of B&B and K&O, the great programs of A&P, the list goes on. And they heavily influenced the Finns R&K, who carried their creativity even further.
It may be hard in hindsight to appreciate T&D's contributions because we are used to today's programs, but for those of us who lived that period, what they did and achieved was astonishing.
I think nuge was slighty mocking Sandra Bezic's comment in the video posted prior to his/her post.
Little bit of both, but I don't think they look that similar.
But I love love love COP dance..
P and K trained with Torvill and Dean - and Mrs, Calloway - for at least part of the season for several years.
T and D's influence and inspiration was "all over" their skating, throughout their career.
thank you so much, pollyanna! your post is really appreciated. i love learning from people in 'real time' instead that always from websites or books.
wow, you dont read this everyday :-D
may i ask you, what you like in it?
You're welcome. And I appreciate your questions and your desire to learn about figure skating history. There's a wealth of knowledge here at FSU!
The combination of the athletic and artistic. The way both dancers should be even in a way that wasn't true in the past (Margaglio, Lobacheva). The crazy awesome beautiful lifts.
I don't think it was about T&D ignoring or breaking the rules. They had to work within them. But it was probably more at the time doing things that no-one else had considered and did leave open questions to how they had interpreted them. And it was also about using every single bit of the music to create a mood or action. Even today a program like Mack or Mabel or Barnum can be held up as a standard of interpretation and choreography that very few skaters, whether they are singles, pairs or ice dancers, have achieved. Under IJS those programs are definately a 10 for components.
It also wasn't just about the OSP and FD. They achieved a standard in compulsories that no-one else has ever done. Their compulsories got 6.0s as well and well deserved. No fluff - just pure skating.
T&D definitely did not always work within the rules. For example, women weren't allowed to be lifted above the man's shoulder. But the flip in Barnum definitely broke that rule. And the 1984 music broke the rules, and one or so of the judges at 1984 Euros dinged them for it. There was much talk about their music at the time, and many wondered if they would lose the Olympic title since they weren't following the rules.
And remember during their 1994 comeback, many wondered if they would choose to stick to the strict rules at that time, or choose to break them again.
Absolutely agree with this, in fact, I had started another post addressing this, but decided I had already been chatty enough and deleted it.
I also couldn't believe Krylova & Federov were promoted so heavily as well at those worlds. I would've placed them behind a number of teams who finished behind them. The Finns had a weak waltz OD that year but their FD was nice (albeit light on the content). I also really like this FD from Tatiana Navka & Samvel Gezalian.
He's not as strong a skater as she is but this program had nice choreography (hell, I found it more difficult than Usova & Zhulin's).
Torvill & Dean's compulsories in Sarajevo were absolutely stunning! They are the golden standard.
I thought the rule was that the man couldn't lift his hands above his shoulders, not so much that the woman couldn't go above his shoulders. I just had a look at autobiography and at Euros in 1983 they did get an illegal element count but changed it for worlds.
In hindsight it really was all quite silly and it didn't cost them anything because they were still the best out there during that time. I think the whole "breaking the rules" was more a perception about what had been accepted in ice dance until that point of time and they broke the mould. Whatever they did transcend that.
ITA, especially about the both dancers thing! I couldn't believe Margaglio face planted at the '02 Olympics and they still won bronze! B&K WUZROBBED!
I liked Navka/Kostomarov but they were a bit boring compared to Grishuk/Platov and Krylova/Ovsiannikov.. I never liked Usova/Zhulin for some reason, they weren't boring but I didn't find them pleasant somehow.. Domnina/Shabalin shouldn't even be counted as among the Russian greats. Their OD at the 2010 Olympics was an out and out farce, and they shouldn't have won the 2009 Worlds. Every time I rewatch their performance at that compared to Belbin and Agosto's, I cannot understand what the judges were thinking placing D&S ahead (well, maybe thinking about politics ).
If by B/K you mean D/V, then I agree.
Yes !. They were the one's who should have one the Bronze (& I was a huge Fusar-Poli/Margaglio fan). B/K went SPLAT at the end of their FD too.
Nav/Kos & Lan/Tch had the two best free dances of the evening in SLC & never got the credit for it.
Belbin/Agosto had more crowd pleasing choreography at the 09' Worlds but Domnina/Shabalin played the system well. Even Robin Cousins who never liked them admitted this when they won.
It's not their fault that the judging system worked that way. They went by-the-book.
The three best FD's of the event were Kerr/Kerr, Davis/White & Virue/Moir IMO.
But I think the Russians were the best in the Compulsory Dance.
I always thought that Pechalat/Borzat had a lovely OD too.
I agree. I also would've put the Bulgarians ahead of both the Canadians and Italians.
I forgot about the compulsories, I guess that did give D/S a good lead since they were always good at those. I don't think I even watched ANY compulsories that season.
I thought Drobiazko/Vanagas skated well too but I barely remember their program now.. B/K's splat wasn't as bad as Margaglio's since it was in the ending pose, not in the middle of an element.
AFAIR, wasn't B&K's ending pose one of the lifts that was needed, rather than just an ending pose? I vaguely recall commentary at the time mentioning it.
I'm not sure whether that's right.
you mean that Dom Shab won on technique? im going to rewatch this competition, but i seem to remember people complained about their FD PC. anyway, Dom Shabs' refined skills were nice to watch and made them look sophisticated.
B&K both fell while performing a lift. Even without the fall, I remember the the guys from british eurosport saying that B&K FD wasn't good enough and that it looked empty in some places.
D&V were totally robbed at the OG02. They skated a super OD and a wonderful FD and still had to go home with empty hands...