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The Gracie Gold Cheer Thread!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by FunnyBut, Jan 12, 2014.

  1. Plusdinfo

    Plusdinfo Active Member

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    *Speaking for myself, there's no thing wrong with someone being packaged as or even overtly portraying a princess. However, if that skater doesn't do that portrayal well (and especially if they've done other kinds of programs better), I'm not sure why it's puzzling that a viewer would want that skater to put out a performance that shines more/is more pleasing to the eye. Taste being subjective, of course.

    My comments have mostly been referring to my view of her presentation and her programs. I agree that the judges often reward her greatly. It doesn't mean I agree with them vis-a-vis Gracie or anyone else.
     
  2. Plusdinfo

    Plusdinfo Active Member

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    Anyway, in an attempt to bring things back more to the "cheer" mode: it's heartening that in spite of a physical issue this past week, Gracie claims she's gotten past it and she's still reasonably healthy to attack the rest of the season.
     
  3. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    Frank Carroll isn't a perfect coach for everybody, nor is what's working for a couple of years for her going to keep working. She needs a change and Frank's coaching camp hasn't helped her move past her Worlds disappointment. How many more times does she have to choke doing the same thing? It's always Gracie that has to fix Gracie, maybe something new and someone who isn't 600 years old could help her make another breakthrough. It's at the point where it appears that all of her love of skating is gone and she can't wait for everything to be over.

    Frank is the only answer though, he's never the problem and he should work all of the time for every skater. It's the skaters fault, always, when it comes to Frank Carroll and it's NEVER because something different would work better for the skater, because they're not people who change. :puppet: :scream: You'd be an idiot to suggest she change. :puppet:

    Gracie has never been this bad off before, she needs a coaching change now more than she's ever needed one before (based on how she's skating and performing).
     
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  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    @Karpenko While I respect your opinion, I have seen skaters make lots of coaching changes before, and it has rarely improved anything.

    What I have not seen much is a skater stay and work through their slump.

    Slumps often happen in other sports, but there is rarely a big rush to change teams or coaches.

    That being said, I am certain that Frank is only training Gracie so long as Gracie wants to be trained by Frank, and Frank will not dump her because he would not want her to think she is being rejected due to poor performances. We already know she will be his last elite skater.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  5. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    I also respect the opposing opinion, but I've noticed that when it comes to Frank it's never a good idea to try something different with some of the posters. This dates back even to Mirai and other skaters. Some people just adore Frank so much they don't know any other solution, they just love him so much and don't know what to do.

    There's a slump, and then there's PTSD and I just don't think this can turn around in time for 2018. Last year really screwed her up.

    With Frank he's coached Kwan. She is my all time favorite and so well respected - but Michelle Kwan won all of her medals. Not Frank. She also won an additional 4 national titles, 3 world medals, and competed until her hip fell apart on her (after Frank). I don't understand why leaving Frank is always never the solution, when if she were skating like this with any other coach on the planet everybody would be :huh: that she doesn't try something new for the sake of positive change.

    I think Frank is a great coach and a good person, but he's not necessarily the answer to this situation for her. He's not always the answer for every point in a skaters career because Frank has Frank's way of coaching because it's proven successful. He's coached a lot of champions, but it's not going to work for everyone long-term is the point I'm trying to make. She could broaden what she's already learned from Frank with new knowledge elsewhere.

    I think she needs someone new who knows what they're doing in order to unravel herself mentally, I feel like she's possibly on her way out unless she does something drastic. Everything negative keeps spiraling and she's shown 0 signs that it'll change in just 1 month..
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Who would you suggest? Are they available?

    -----------

    I was looking who is surrounding Frank at the Toyota Center, and I am certain it would be hard to beat the resources available and doubt Frank would oppose her using them.


    http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0093/4780/SSPRO_BIOS_2.27.16.pdf

    Maybe she could spend time with Chin or Fratianne or Christa Fassi or Eric Millot or the coaches that focus on psychology and the mental game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  7. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    Please explain how any of Gracie's programs this or last season are princessy.

    But that's not just the judges. Many of us skating fans think that her Firebird program was great and fit her well.
     
  8. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    @bardtoob That's the thing, there really are lots of coaches. Eteri and Tsareva kind of popped out of nowhere in the past few years because their skaters grew up, it's the same in NA. Not every great coach has a skater on TV (or has been on the scene with a top lady recently). Gracie is good enough and respected enough internationally now that she doesn't have to have Frank with her at the boards or in the K&C to skate/score really well. She needs to be happy skating because that's just gone now, and then get in Olympic shape and hit her programs. It's not that Frank can't help her get there better than anyone, but she can't really make that push unless she's inspired and with a positive mindset. If she's as unhappy as she appears, I think a fresh start would help with that and give her a new challenge (instead of doing the same training routine/environment she's had for 4 years now).

    I suggested Brian Orser, but theres bound to be plenty of others. I remember reading a comment of advice from Ashley in an article this year saying that she should leave the nest.. That's pretty telling IMO, the skaters know each other way more than we do. Maybe a complete fresh start away from Frank/family would do it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    @Karpenko

    If Gracie needs that change, nobody is going to stop her.

    You recommend it. I don't. This can be one of the rare points where we disagree.

    That being said, Orser is pretty much a good choice no matter what for any skater, although he did have a skater leave to go to Edmund's coach :confused:

    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016/04/24/174203632/tcc-tidbits-nguyen-announces-coaching-change

    I personal think as highly of Orser as Frank, so this was disappointing to me as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  10. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    :lol: Polina Edmunds wanted her man by her side. :glamor:

    Having top level training mates helps, it seemed like training with Evan (who was training for OGM, and won it..) + Frank is what really helped Mirai soar in 2010. Just like in 2014 for Gracie it was a new challenge, and as soon as Evan left the picture it seemed like Mirai slowly did as well. Now that Denis Ten is gone Gracie is the only one there.. :yawn:

    I don't think Gracie is training with Frank against her will, but if she's lost she's going to keep beating herself up and underperforming like she has been. She wouldn't make the decision now, but I think it would be good for her at least to have stronger training mates. If she were on the ice with Hanyu and Javi all the time that would rock. Chartrand and Tursynbaeva are very good but they're post-2018 skaters, and training triple axels and quads. Gracie would be a legit OGM contender training with skaters who can keep up with her (and outjump her like Yuzu and Javi). His camp is very :COP: and good at getting the most points out of a skater. (Aside from Joshi :scream: )
     
  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Ewww . . . I didn't need to know that.
     
  12. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    :huh: How was that gross? He's Polina's boyfriend and that's a big reason why he left Orser for Polina's coach.
     
  13. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Aren't they both like 12? They look it ... Even if he made a stupid choice like an 18 year old guy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  14. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ This whole exchange is just -- stand by your man funny. :lol:
     
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  15. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    Anything else you want to throw at the wall To see if it sticks?
     
  16. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    Gracie was not ready for this season and it shows. I think that's the problem. The emotional part she's getting over isn't helping but she was under trained and mentally not ready. Before you know it, here comes Skate America and her other assignment. I wonder if skipping the season would have been better. She had no way of knowing.

    I'm looking forward to her resurgence. Her free skate is so beautiful and her. I'm hoping for the best. I'm hoping she sticks it out, not to merely be present but to thrive. Even with her poor performances, she's the most capable US woman and she's one of the worlds best.
     
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  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    :shuffle: There are a lot more, obviously :lol:
     
  18. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    Gracie's problems are not external. The ONLY reason I'd question Frank is because of how she described him in lessons as... well... aging. If he's still sharp, keep him. Frank is a very " look, do it this way and you'll be fine " coach which some don't like. He provides the right atmosphere and it's up to the skater to make it work.

    People want Gracie to have a maternal like figure similar to what Angela Nikodinov had I get the feeling. Someone to come in, will her to a better state and all will be right. Reliance on a coach too much isn't good. In the long run Gracie will be better suited in an environment where she has to be a gladiator which is what she is. She's a tough cookie.
     
  19. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    @arakwafan2006

    Did you read the exchange between me and Karpenko?

    I advise against a move for Gracie. Karpenko advises for a move . . . so talk to Karpenko if you want to tell somebody about not moving.

    When I listed Chin, Fratianne, Millot, Fassi, etc. I was merely pointing out that those coaches are already at her rink, and are compatible with keeping Frank. Frank has good resources available.
     
  20. AngieNikodinovLove

    AngieNikodinovLove Well-Known Member

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    I have advocated for Gracie to move and to move to Orser and Orser only!
     
  21. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    Arakawafan has made it clear they think I'm an idiot on this matter. ;) and I've made it clear that I don't give a rats ass and have reasons to back it up.

    As for Nam and Polina, just because someone is a couple doesn't mean you have to think of them together. :p :scream: Then the world would be grossed out all the time no?

    OMG Donald and Melania :scream: :scream: Ewwww see what you did :yikes:
     
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  22. ToFarAwayTimes

    ToFarAwayTimes Well-Known Member

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    How do you know he's providing the right atmosphere for her? The right atmosphere for Michelle Kwan or one of his other students, no matter how much it has worked for some people in the past, may not be the right atmosphere for her. Even if he was a net positive for her career at one point, which is almost certainly true, that doesn't mean he's still the right coach for her right now.

    Gracie absolutely needs a new team. She has to completely start over or her career is over. It's that simple. The poor girl has no soul on the ice. No identity. She never has. She has a fabulous and unique personality and persona off the ice, it's truly a mystery that she has never managed to transfer that self-essence into her performances. The short program last year was the only time I saw it, and even then she was unsure of herself. I always come back to that haunting visual, after she finished one of the best skates of her life, her natural instinct was to scan the audience with her eyes and seek out praise. This girl has been beaten down into a pulp and she's got no sense of herself and it's probably been that way since a young age.
     
  23. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    No, how do YOU know? You don't.Gracie Gold isNot a rescue animal. She's a professional athlete with immense capabilities. You, don't even know the duties of a coach as is evident by your comment.

    Beaten to a pulp? Did you cut and paste an electronic journal entry of yours into this post?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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  24. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your advise. I also like the addition. I think I quoted the wrong post. She's in great hands which is why she hasn't left.
     
  25. ToFarAwayTimes

    ToFarAwayTimes Well-Known Member

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    Karpenko, is this one of the FC worshippers you warned us all about? Good lord help Gracie if she had someone with this attitude speaking to her like this in practice or God forbid at breakfast every day.
     
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :eek: Wowza, you can see all that, can you? Just by looking into Gracie's eyes via a tv screen? :duh:
     
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  27. ToFarAwayTimes

    ToFarAwayTimes Well-Known Member

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    Yes, anyone could see if it they bothered to look. Watch any skater when they finish a performance, good or bad. How do they react instinctively in the first seconds after they finish, before they even have time to gather their thoughts? Do they cover their face and jump and down on the ice and remember, internally, all of the emotions and heartaches and successes and failures and hard work they've put in over the years? Someone named Akiko Suzuki did exactly that. Does their aura of nonchalance momentarily burst with a silent clasp of the mouth and exclamation of surprise, as Yuna Kim once did? Does their natural competitive fire and sass immediately shine through as it does often with Ashley Wagner? If you don't notice these things then you're not looking.

    What did Gracie do in the immediate instance she finished one of the best skates of her career? There was no internal reflection or move towards the coach--not in those first seconds. Her eyes immediately started scanning the crowd in search of validation. Make of it what you will, but if you go back and watch the end of the skate it's as plain as day.
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    :drama:

    Recommending not switching coaches is not worship.

    How about read the thread, and consider that maybe she needs to work through her slump like a baseball player or some other athlete that can't and won't switch teams and coaches every time things are not going well.
     
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Oh my! Geezy, wheezy. If it's that easy to assess skaters' personalities, desires, motivations and life stories by simply watching their reactions after a performance, well my word, I'm certainly gonna have to look much more closely. :COP:

    Of course there is a lot to decipher from body language, but methinks you are taking your over-analysis methods a teensy weensy bit too far. There's just as much probability that you are way off-base. Maybe Gracie was just searching the crowd for her sister or for someone else she knows. Maybe she had been in a zone and then when it was all over, she suddenly realized there were all these people watching her. :D ;)

    In any case, many skaters can perform to a high level and still not be confident inside about just how well they performed. I recall Johnny Weir shrugging his shoulders after his absolutely gorgeous The Swan short program at the 2006 Olympics. I'm not going to try and decipher exactly what that meant. I could guess from having been a fan who closely followed his career. From things Johnny has said about the 2006 Olympics, he seemingly did not have his head on straight and he was feeling like a fish out of water. He ended up having to work extremely hard just to make the team for the 2010 Olympics, so when he leaned down and kissed the ice at the end of his fp in Vancouver, some of his emotions were quite easy to decipher, but not being in his head I would not presume to know exactly how he was feeling then either. I don't think we can know that. Sometimes even the skaters may not know themselves exactly why they react the way they do.

    ETA:
    BTW, who do you think it was who "beat Gracie down to a pulp"? Her former coach? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  30. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    Yes, but I do for the most part usually agree with arakawafan (in spite of the condescending jabs from time to time, whatever their reasoning for the sense of entitlement - they aren't the only one who knows things about skating or have :sekret:. Tons of people here know what they're talking about and have a lot of credible skating insight/their own sources, you don't know everyone posting personally do you???). Just not on this. I'm not sure they realize how much Frank-love is in their eye, or how it really appears that way to some people.

    You can't deny that Gracie Gold has tanked 4 competitions in a row and is in a HUGE downward spiral, but she's a big girl she can handle it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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