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The Dance Hall part 3: Ice Dance Fans 2016-2017

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Dobre, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    zilam98 -- would you please post the link to the rulebook? That would be helpful to have to get discussions going, I'd think.
     
  2. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    Page 16 of this document: http://static.isu.org/media/320383/2003-id_requirementsfortechnicalrules_2016-17.pdf

    The thing is, even with the features listed, and p/c hitting the features being listed, the way they execute the features doesn't really show much difficulty. and that's where the judging gets muddled. yes, gabi changed her position, but her position and cizeron's positions are not as difficult as how v/m do their straightline lift. for p/c's straightline lift, gabi is mostly on cizeron's back, not even extending a part from her far away from her crouched position on cizeron's back. and she keeps one arm, both legs and her trunk on him for most of that lift and cizeron finishes that lift on BOTH feet. cizeron is showing both hands free when gabi extends one arm off, but he's on a hunched position with most of gabi's body on his trunk and hip.

    in v/m's case, both v/m finish the lift on one foot. tessa herself extends one leg far away from her at the beginning of the lift and transitions to the standing position using mostly her leverage on one of her legs on scott's arm, and sustains that lift in standing position on one leg far away from scott, with scott supporting her at her legs. v/m could've easily gotten away with scott just holding tessa on one of her legs in that standing position, or scott sustaining that lift on one of his legs (as they have previously done in their earlier careers, something they usually didn't get credit for against their rivals who did comparatively easier and repeated lifts).

    so, even with v/m showing more difficulty in the straightline lift, that lift is still scored the same as p/c's even with the latter lift showing lesser difficulty. this is where even if the rule books state how elements are scored, the judging is not crediting the actual level of difficulty shown by the teams
     
  3. DreamsofBliss

    DreamsofBliss Active Member

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    What about the lift is not artistic to you or difficult enough to you? Change of pose is only one thing to be considered as a feature for a level. They both have difficult poses, the entry position for Sara is difficult, and (the most subjective of these imo), the unexpected entry could possibly have factored in. I agree linking to the handbooks would be helpful so here is the handbook for the tech panel and here is the handbook for the judges and referees. I don't see anything about core strength or core control in these documents by the way, but of course some of these positions require it.
     
  4. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    so, here evaluate GOE . If they are getting L4 because they are hitting all the features being listed I don`t see the problem with the level. If both are doing a L4 element so let the GOE to evaluate other things. example: at jumps a difficult entry or landing is considered for GOE.
     
  5. Icedream

    Icedream Member

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    That is P/C choregraphic lift, which is a level 1 lift not a level 4 lift. You should read the protocole before giving technical lessons
     
  6. Miloune

    Miloune Well-Known Member

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    Epic Fail indeed :swoon:
     
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  7. allezfred

    allezfred Master/Mistress of Sneer Staff Member

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    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
     
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  8. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    P/C https://youtu.be/DrhJfM7N-qk?t=59 base 4.5 goe 1.80, Total 6.30
    V/M https://youtu.be/8SFV3Ot-iUM?t=251 base 4.5 goe 1.63 Total 6.13
    S/S https://youtu.be/B0ercem9Nzk?t=93 base 4.5 goe 1.54 Total 6.04

    First time actually checking this, are the same lift ( SlLi4), right?. Without to be an expert this score seems so wrong. In fact, Guillaume seems to have a harder time in the choreographic lift https://youtu.be/DrhJfM7N-qk?t=262 than in the SILi4. But I don´t know how GOE is assigned. I am going to check later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
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  9. chameleonster

    chameleonster Well-Known Member

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    I'd need to check the requirements, but I suppose the ease and flow of the lift is the reason for the high GOE.

    It doesn't really matter, levelwise, if V/M have harder lifts than P/C or not, as you can still easily get the levels. 13 year old juniors frequently get level four lifts and they're certainly not revolutionizing the world with their groundbreaking lifts. And in general I've been noticing a shift in ice dance scoring towards simpler programs/elements with more flow and ease.
     
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  10. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Well-Known Member

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    This is due to the rule changes I think. One less lift required (FD) and less steps/turns in the various step sequences. This is allowing a bit more freedom between the elements as well.
     
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  11. legjumper

    legjumper Well-Known Member

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    I am very much looking forward to the Torun Cup next week, where Hurtado/Khaliavin will face both Kaliszek/Spodirev (11th at 2016 Euros, 16th at 2016 Worlds, GP high score this season ~150) and Muramoto/Reed (15th at 2016 Worlds, GP high score this season ~147). The Poles and Japanese seem very closely matched, and it will be very interesting to see where Hurtado/Khaliavin factor in, especially with Euros just a few weeks away. Plus, I really enjoy all of these teams, and they all have very different FDs. :40beers:

    (The teams in the 11-15 range are just as interesting to discuss as those in the 1-10 range, imo....)
     
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  12. DreamsofBliss

    DreamsofBliss Active Member

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    I admit to being surprised by PC's high scores on the straight line lift this season, but I guess the judges like it. And yes that counts as a reason to give GOE--aesthetically pleasing. It's not my favorite lift, but at the same time I can see why the judges would think it's "floating and effortless" and even more "floaty" than VM or the Shibs, though VM and the Shibs execute theirs well, too. I don't really like either lift a lot though to my personal taste. With the Shibs, at Cup of China you could see Alex wobble from the overhead cam. He looks fine to me here, but again, angles.
     
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  13. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

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    He has pretty good control. I've seen the lift three times live (plus practices) over the past year and only once with a notable wobble.
     
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  14. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    it is true, and now I understand the score. But I think the system is wrong. Because it is not possible that Garbiella`s weaknesses can be overlooked like that. When you really look at them ( P/C ), the team is unbalanced because he is always doing the job, she is always above him and strongly clinging to him or hanging from his neck, she is always in a comfortable and/or safe position.

    Just look at other teams. But you just look at the woman, see the job, effort and risk that she is taking in the lift.

    https://youtu.be/_KosB8GHT8c?t=197
    https://youtu.be/zRY259QH46c?t=133
    https://youtu.be/zy8Sro_nd-o?t=87
    https://youtu.be/FCZFDRR4OCo?t=53
    https://youtu.be/S6x9MNVtph4?t=130
    https://youtu.be/InemitjIPrM?t=140
    https://youtu.be/rgTysnxlGzA?t=131
    https://youtu.be/pzgI5o1rAlc?t=162
    https://youtu.be/B0ercem9Nzk?t=93
    https://youtu.be/h1Yopp1T8PE?t=87


    Now, look at Gabriella

    https://youtu.be/CPsxxpFQb1k?t=30
    https://youtu.be/CPsxxpFQb1k?t=110
    https://youtu.be/CPsxxpFQb1k?t=175
    https://youtu.be/CPsxxpFQb1k?t=236
    https://youtu.be/d-SF_II3Sdw?t=146

    Gabriella is who depends of her partner the most, not just she is not doing the job or collaborating to Cizeron, she is not taking risks, the most of the time she is very clinging to him, safe. So, I assume that she is not enough strong or skilled to collaborate in the lift and her equilibrium/balance is not great because she is never in a risk/dangerous position. The other girls are collaborating in the lift, at least 50%, or not doing much physical work but taking risky poses. So, judges have not common sense? they really don´t see it? . Somewhere in the scores that weakness should be reflected.

    And maybe the problem was last season, when she had her concussion, maybe she is scared. In 2015 she did two lifts doing her part:
    https://youtu.be/OZujW3Wmg9A?t=200 look at the exit, not effortless, not flowing, you know why? because she was doing something, and that exit depended on her, not him.

    She is beautiful? yes, she is sweet? yes, she get pretty poses? yes, she is technically superior? no.
     
  15. maya1985

    maya1985 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's you who refuses to see the difficulty ... it's so much easier to say how weak someone is. So Gabriella does not collaborate during the lifts, why not?:scream: I also found that it had been a long time that we had not heard that Cizeron did all the work:D
     
  16. Aerobicidal

    Aerobicidal American Fabulous

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    Papadakis needs a nosejob!

    Her partner is a wicked homosexual!

    Their tech skills are absolutely atrocious! I can't believe the judges consistently rank them higher than Virtue and Moir! If there is any justice in the world, we will be allowed to talk about hardcore tech, softcore tech, Cinemax tech, vanilla tech, and rough bondage tech in this thread without having slurs and brickbats and chunks of virtual nastiness larger than Paul Poirier's buttocks hurled at us!!!!
     
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  17. cocotaffy

    cocotaffy Well-Known Member

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    Double post sorry
     
  18. cocotaffy

    cocotaffy Well-Known Member

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    Thank the Lord and vodka for the face bitch to bring some reason in this thread. May she intervene more often.
     
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  19. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    But where is Esta when we need her blowing some smoke?!
     
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  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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  21. barbarafan

    barbarafan Well-Known Member

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  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    chapis likes this.
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia Anticipating Challenge Cup & JR Worlds!

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    Link to the 2017 Europeans dance entries (30 teams): http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat00028803.htm

    ETA:
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  24. chameleonster

    chameleonster Well-Known Member

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  25. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know if either of the Czech female ice dancers--Cortney Mansour or Nicole Kuzmich--already has or is likely to have citizenship for the Olympics? (Curious both because Mansour & Ceska are on the bubble as a team and because the Czech Republic is a plausible competitor for the team event).
     
  26. levineismine

    levineismine Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, this was very informative!

    Going back to Sr. US nats, I think the top 3 will be close in scores if there are no mistakes. I think the Shibs are likely to repeat, but it won't be a runaway victory. C/B have scored well when they skated clean, and if I remember correctly Shibs nailed the levels at the GPF but had issues in the SD levels in the two GP events.
    It will be interesting to see if any team will have an 'all out' performance (Shibs FD last year) or nerves will prevail and keep teams cautious.
    My guess is then H/B for 4th and Pogrebisnky/Benoit 5th. C/McM didn't receive much love from the judges this year...

    What do people think about Can Nationals? Who should we look for after all these splits/retirements, besides the top 3?
     
  27. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

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    Biechler & Dodge are debuting as seniors at U.S. Nationals as well. I am looking forward to seeing them.

    Lajoie & Lagha, who will be competing in juniors.

    Soucisse & Firus and Sales & Wamsteeker are the most likely fourth & fifth in seniors. That is essentially where they finished at Skate Canada Challenge, and I don't see that as a surprise result. S&F seem to be gelling relatively fast for a new team. And Sales & Wamsteeker are having their debut season in seniors after just missing the junior world team last season. Arnold & Williams were the next highest team at Challenge and not too far off S&W, which is a sign that A&W have improved since I saw their programs way back in the summer.

    The most interesting battle, IMO, outside the top three seniors, is the one for the silver medal in the junior field. Canada has only two spots at Junior Worlds. There are at least four teams in the running for that second spot:

    Taillefer & Chan
    Stairs & Royer
    Wu & Mirzakhani
    Fabbri & Pietrantonio

    These four teams have split placements and high scores throughout the season.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
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  28. Lara111

    Lara111 Member

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    Great article but times when you only needed to do twizzeles to get to Nationals are gone at all levels
     
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  29. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    I like Wu & Mirzkhani out of the Wing/Lowe camp. Fabbri & Pietrantonio are pretty good too. Have not seen the other 2 teams.

    I was a big fan of Tim Lum for several years. I am begging the skating gods to let him return to competition soon.
     
  30. legjumper

    legjumper Well-Known Member

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    As @Sylvia reported in the OES thread, Anna Yanovskaya has teamed up with Adam Lukacs to skate for Hungary, and they will make their debut together at the Bavarian Open in February. This isn't a partnership I would have predicted, but judging by pictures in the link below, he seems tall enough for her. Perhaps just as importantly, they're young and have no competition in Hungary - they're both 20 and could conceivably represent Hungary through the next two Olympic cycles.

    https://www.facebook.com/MagyarOrszagosKorcsolyazoSzovetseg/posts/1536829286330695

    I seem to love following the careers of split couples, so I'm very curious to see how Yanovskaya/Lukacs will fare in comparison to Popova/Mozgov. :watch: