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The Dance Hall part 3: Ice Dance Fans 2016-2017

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Dobre, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    I've been really impressed with Guignard/Fabbri last season/this season. I see them as just outside the top group right now. I feel like it's the top group, then G/F, then everyone else. Next season, with good programs, I could almost see G/F start to challenge the less secure teams in the top group (G/P, C/L, C/B, H/D, B/S, W/P). I don't know if it'll actually happen but i feel like it could maybe be possible.

    Hawayek/Baker are making good progress, but I think they have a way to go yet in building up their international rep (which started out strong, but took a hit last season).

    There are so many great teams right now! :cheer2:
     
    legjumper and levineismine like this.
  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think Hawayek/Baker right now should focus on being seen as the future and keep impressing the ice dance world with great programs and improving skills so by the time the next "change" happens after Pyeongchang and at least one (I suspect two) of the current American top 3 teams retire or take a break, they'll be there with McNamara/Carpenter and the Parsons to hold the American ice dance torch. They need to make sure they were not going to be a "holdover" team that is used as a placeholder for the juniors who consistent and winning titles. Last season, they looked like they were in danger of becoming that team, but they turned things around this season. I also think ice dance today allows teams to make "come backs". Look at how Hubbell/Donohue turned things around after their semi-disappointing scores in the 2014-2015 season.
     
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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  4. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    okay, to make the top 10 listings more interesting and in-depth, let's discuss:

    1. which lesser ranked teams have the cleanest/most accurate pattern in the blues sd this year as prescribed in the rule book while maintaining consistent speed?

    2. which teams have the most difficult lift deserving of L4 as prescribed in the rule book? which of the lesser ranked teams are executing lifts that go beyond the rule book (least supportive positions, equal work by both partners, requires most core control, most stable edge control by the lifting partner)?

    3. which of the teams tend to do more of the longer bladework than the short stroking across the ice?

    let's start with those. would like to see teams in the top 6-10 range discussed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  5. Subway

    Subway Well-Known Member

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    Have been away a day but no, it's not fandom. I'm sorry it's inconvenient that technical analysis demonstrates Virtue and Moir are better than Papadakis/Cizeron, and the Shibutanis too, but there's nothing nefarious about that. This is a competition. Skaters are better than other skaters. It's telling that those who call names refuse to do the technical analysis. Apparently the technical analysis itself is suspect. If so, do your own, objective technical analysis. The fact that some fans refuse is all we need to know.
     
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  6. Subway

    Subway Well-Known Member

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    It's not IDEALOGY, unless, and people are free to come out and say so, the rules and technical excellence, and fair judging, are less important to them than their personal enjoyment, and they wish the thread weren't taken over by people who focus on the competitive and comparitive aspect of this competitive, comparitive sport. You haven't said this, others haven't said this. Why don't you say it. Analysis isn't psychotic. I see a lot of people tend to call ANY analysis "overanalysis." They are offended by anyone a) understanding what skating technique looks like, b) looking at how well the competitors skate according to the definition and standards of skating technique, and b) seeing if the judges are applying the standards and rules when they score. A lot of people are offended by those things, but the problem certainly isn't with the fans who are interested in those things.

    Understanding the technical rules of the sport and what good skating looks like isn't psychotic either. If you don't care about that, say it, but don't turn it around and pretend the very exercise of looking at who demonstrates superior skating skills and who doesn't is somehow inherently biased, because THAT's crazy.

    TECH is HOW it is decided one team is better than another. It's how medals are awarded. Or did you no know that? It seems you don't like anything about the sport.

    Newsflash, fans can be interested in tech.
     
  7. Prancer

    Prancer Cursed for all time Staff Member

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    Since the blog seems to be the point of contention, perhaps those who want to discuss it can start another thread specifically about that?
     
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  8. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    that can be done, but just to be clarified, wasn't the intention of this thread to be a discussion thread about ice dance? otherwise, it should've been clarified in the title or a sticky or wherever that this thread is exclusive only for postings about rankings, results, music news and nothing in depth about technical discussions.

    maybe the new subsequent series of threads be made by the mods with the title clarification that it be only about news, rumors, rankings without technical discussions so it can be clarified to the rest of the posters that technical discussions are not to be done in this series of threads. that ice dance needs a separate thread for technical discussions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  9. Prancer

    Prancer Cursed for all time Staff Member

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    Or maybe, as discussions evolve, as they do, people can evolve their expectations with them.

    Think of it as a group conversation rather than some sort of facilitated discussion with a specified goal. Sometimes part of the group wants to to talk about something the rest of the group does not. You don't generally see someone stand up and dictate what is going to be discussed by everyone; the group that wants to discuss a particular subject peels off to talk about what interests them.

    The admins are not going to police posts in threads to ensure that they are on topic; none of of us have time for that kind of crap and it's never been necessary here. I'm not going to insist that you move the discussion elsewhere; it was a suggestion. It just seems to me that the thread has taken an ugly turn and is overly focused on squabbling, and it's an easy way to put an end to it with everyone getting what they want.
     
  10. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    i did warn before that it will devolve to name-calling when that blog was posted here and people were only asked to come up with technical observations/discussions. some people chose to resort to name calling instead of coming up with technical observations or ignoring such technical discussions if they can't tolerate it. some non-technical posts were still facilitated discussions (such as asking opinions about who their top 10 teams are in such and such competitions) and not just regular group conversations, but i guess ice dance technical discussions are the only discussions that will fall into facilitated discussions category that warrants its own thread.
     
  11. Prancer

    Prancer Cursed for all time Staff Member

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    If your goal is to just continue arguing and complaining, have at it. I'm not interested.
     
    mysticchic likes this.
  12. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Fixed it for you!

    I'm going to trust multiple tech panels over two and a half seasons over a fan with an agenda and confirmation bias.
     
  13. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly zilam98, the majority of your posts haven't contained any technical discussion at all -- they've just been complaints about how others are handling your desire to discuss tech. If you want to discuss it, then just discuss it. If anyone else is interested in discussing tech, they will join you. The people who aren't will discuss something else. If you don't want to read non-tech discussions though, then perhaps starting a tech-only thread would be best.
     
  14. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    oh really? subway and i started talking about lift difficulty (did you even notice that one about the difficulty in shibutani's arabesque straightline lift?), northerndancers put in some information as well, but no one else furthered that discussion about certain elements. instead, people only came up with excuses, suspicions and name calling, so what can you do? @Subway and @NorthernDancers have presented detailed explanations for such. the information is already there, we're just asking people to refute all the information presented with their own technical analysis.

    and like i said in another post, people are welcome to ignore tech posts/discussions, in the same way that people can also ignore non tech discussions. people don't have to resort to name calling, excuses and suspicions to do that, do they? i even posted a question of which top 10 teams execute certain elements better to have a more in-depth discussion of those top 10 team lists, but did anyone reply to that? people only want to know who your top 10 teams are without discussing why they should be in top 10 over other teams that aren't in top 10. that's fine, but that's not my cup of tea

    it's sad and unfortunate that people disdain technical discussions when it should be at the very heart of why teams get certain scores/rankings. it's fine if people ignore tech discussions, but to resort to name calling and excuses are uncalled for
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  15. allezfred

    allezfred Master/Mistress of Sneer Staff Member

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    #BrokenRecord
     
  16. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    @sap5 how about this:

    what is in p/c's straightline lift in their FD that makes it worthy of a level 4? does it require as much effort/core control as v/m's straightline lift in their FD?
     
  17. bwayrose7

    bwayrose7 Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought, but if 1) folks want to discuss tech specifically, and 2) discussing tech about certain teams causes more issues and distracts from the tech itself, perhaps technical discussions could use other teams as examples, besides the two or three teams that seem to be at the center of the circular arguments? That way, no one's favorites get insulted or put on a pedestal, and more people might be interested in a technical discussion if it's not one that they sense invites controversy and arguments.
     
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  18. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Some fans like dissecting the trees of a performance. I'd rather leave that to the technical panel, and enjoy the forest.
     
  19. allezfred

    allezfred Master/Mistress of Sneer Staff Member

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    It doesn't matter whether it requires as much or more or the same. It has the features of a Level 4 lift and three separate tech panels at three different events this season graded it as such. Perhaps you could ask one of them and stop bothering the rest of us who are not interested in your "discussion" that we all know goes only one way, ie Papadakis/Cizeron suck?

    Tech Panel Trophee de France
    Tech Panel NHK Trophy
    Tech Panel Grand Prix Final
     
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  20. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    so discussing how one team performs certain elements better than another team means the lesser skilled team is being insulted? i thought ice dance was a sport where teams ARE graded on the skill levels

    any team that's a reigning champ will always be the target. that's the nature of hierarchy in anything. v/m certainly had their detractors when they were at the top, things like them only doing romantic stuff and such. but did that cause them to stagnate in developing their skills and performing their programs? they even go as far as being innovative with their lifts, and changing the rhythms of their FDs to include latin (performed in as close sense to the latin rhythms as much as possible and not being lyrical about it) and a musical

    oh and did you notice i did post that question as to which top 10 teams (emphasis on the teams ranked below top 5) execute certain elements better than other teams? didn't you say you want to discuss other teams too? how about starting with that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  21. maya1985

    maya1985 Well-Known Member

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    The only thing that interests you is to "prove" that P/C is much lower than V/M. that's all. You spend your time systematically denigrating P/C
     
    mysticchic likes this.
  22. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    well then, if you want to prove that p/c is much superior over v/m, then systematically discuss why
     
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  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I loved Hubbell/Donohue's straightline lift in their Tron FD, especially at Worlds. I know everyone was all about their "Hallelujah" SD, but I thought it was a bit hokey myself and it reminded me too much of all the other SDs Marie-France did that season. For me, "Tron" was where I fell in love with Hubbell/Donohue. H/D's twizzles were also amazing all of last season, but less so this season.
     
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There's a thread called "if you love them both". Some of us do. I don't feel the need to discuss why one team is better, I'd rather enjoy both. Fixating on the tech detracts from my enjoyment, and I think a separate nitty-gritty tech thread might be a good idea for those who want to focus exclusively on that.

    How did I miss this?

    I liked Hurtado/Diaz's straightline reverse lift. Has anyone else done a reverse lift as a scoring element? They used to get level 4 for it, and they had some other fun ones as well. Hurtado seems to be carrying on the tradition of cool lifts in her new partnership, too.
     
  25. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    you know what will be funny? it's titled "if you love them both" so all the more fans won't tolerate tech discussions there as discussing technicalities is apparently not "loving" them both
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  26. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    now let's bring this further into a tech discussion. what would make the reverse lift worthy of L4? does it have the features that make it a L4 lift? is the man changing positions DURING the lift? just because it's a woman lifting a man doesn't automatically make it a L4 if they don't hit the requirements for a L4.

    granted, it's a "cool" lift (something that anisinna/peizerat made into a highlight in the 6.0 era), but again, ice dance is a sport. why not make it worthwhile to do elements that actually garner high scores while conveying artistry with it? but i guess when you're a lower ranked team with little chances or ambition to hit top 5 or higher, you'll just do "fun" stuff
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I sort of question why the Shibs SD lift had been called level 3 in both GP events when it was level 4 all of last season (though I do think Alex's execution wasn't as on the first rotation at both performances), I'm glad they changed it as I think the new one is more exciting and fits the music and theme better.
     
  28. DreamsofBliss

    DreamsofBliss Active Member

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    Not sure why you say it's irrelevant. Concept of a program falls under composition in PCS. Other things that show up in PCS are individuality (so when fans talk about skaters having an identity they actually have basis in the rules to do so), personality, and originality. All of these things are subjective. According to the handbook:
    "The Free Dance must contain combinations of new or known dance steps and movements including Required Elements composed into a well balanced, whole unit displaying excellent skating technique and the personal creativity of the Couple in concept, arrangement, and expression."

    So...it's not accurate to say skating technique is the only thing considered and that the rules of the sport do no allow room for subjectivity or that fans are totally out of line for discussing it. It makes sense to me personally that it gets discussed a lot because of how much more accessible it is.

    I do agree with you that we should be allowed to see the video footage the panel uses (and i think multiple camera angles would be better for all disciplines, but I understand that would a hardship) since being a fan of other sports, I understand how different things can look from different angles. I think, for example, Virtue and Moir have benefited from that in their twizzles, receiving a perfect score at NHK trophy FD when you can see Tessa struggling with the first twizzle in the broadcast video. And the same has gone for many other teams in the past. It helps, I think, to remember that judges and the panel are watching from a different angle and often not rewatching and rewatching video. Oh! Also, they are watching practices, which is sure to influence their opinion, but for the tech panel at least, it is mandated by the rules.
     
  29. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    Are there interviews with judges? they are permitted to give interviews? It would be interesting to have their opinion. I mean, not directly to ask to num. 6 judge why she/he gave certain score but to ask opinion to a random ice dance judge who was not judging that competition, explain why some teams are getting certain elements well, why others teams are not, what were the mistakes, etc. TSL should to do something like that at the next worlds to analyze how the medalist got their scores . I know some aspects are subjetive but at least the objetive could to get more clear.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  30. DreamsofBliss

    DreamsofBliss Active Member

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    I think that would be interesting as well. It would be nice to know if they gave a +3 GOE with some thought or it it just looked nice enough. (which is what I think seems to happen more and more)

    For tech, Judy Blumberg has been on the mic for IceNetwork's (and in-house I believe SkateRadio) and I found that very illuminating and interesting. She sort of questioned the level call for Chock and Bates dance spin at Nationals last year, (she thought it was too low) but said she'd have to look at it again. Unfortunately, these are not archived so you have to watch and listen live.
     
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