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The Dance Hall part 3: Ice Dance Fans 2016-2017

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Dobre, Nov 23, 2016.

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  1. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

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    Papadakis & Cizeron
    Cappellini & Lanotte
    Bobrova & Soloviev
    Stepanova & Bukin
    Guignard & Fabbri
    Sinitsina & Katsalapov
    Tobias & Tkachenko
    Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson
    Hurtado & Khaliavin (Individually, they should have the pieces/technique/name recognition to compete within the top ten; but, of course, that is contingent upon avoiding the new-partnership-implosion syndrome)

    -As of the last update I read by Penny, Coomes & Buckland hadn't yet ruled out the possibility of Europeans.

    Otherwise, one of the following four teams, I think:

    Agafanova & Ucar have the highest SB of these four teams. It's from Tallinn so it's questionable, but they also medaled at Golden Spin with a higher score (by several points) than any of the SBs by other teams on this list and in a pretty deep Challenger field. A&U earned a 159.02 at Golden Spin (which is also higher than the Danes this season) and defeated Lorenz & Polizoakis by over 3 1/2 points. A&U also defeated both Czech teams there as well as Nazarova & Nikitin of Ukraine. Agafanova & Ucar have been on the senior international circuit longer than any of the other teams on this list. They had a very rough start to their season this summer and missed the FD cut at Worlds by one spot last year. (It was a shame, really. They have a nice presence on the ice). But A&U had a rough go last season, dealing with being upended politically & having to change coaches mid year. This year, they seem settled, and are essentially number two under Krylova & Camerlengo. Golden Spin was good momentum for them to head into the post season.

    Kaliszek & Spodyriev had the highest placement of these four teams at last year's Worlds. And while they were only one spot above the Germans, they placed three spots higher in the SD there before mistakes on the twizzles knocked them down to 16th. K&S have a great, entertaining FD; but they've taken some hits on execution in their last two events. Placing below Wang & Liu and Lauriault & Le Gac in the FDs at Cup of China and NHK. (Not great for momentum). K&S are a young team and had the best transition into seniors last season of any junior dance team.

    Lauriault & Le Gac are transitioning up into seniors this season. L&LG made the JGPF last season and looked like they had a good shot at finishing top four at Junior Worlds until a costly mistake on their twizzle sequence knocked them way down. They have the second highest scores this season among the teams transitioning from juniors--behind Pogrebinsky & Benoit--and defeated the Poles in the FD and overall at NHK. At home for Trophee de France, L&LG had a 49.7 TES score during the FD that was actually higher than two teams which finished ahead of them. (Tobias & Tkachenko and Ilynikh & Zhiganshin). Overall a successful transitioning season. We haven't seen L&LG on the Challenger circuit since the Autumn Classic so their late season scores are all from the deeper fields on the GP circuit. Training in Montreal.

    Lorenz & Polizoakis have the second highest SB on this list. They split dances with the Poles this season at Nepela and finished 4th at Golden Spin behind Agafanova & Ucar. L&P had a break-out year last season, and finished second of all the teams on this list at Worlds, but they've had several big mistakes this season, which have kept them from building momentum--and their SD is doing them no favors. I think they are a longshot; but they do have Igor and appear to be gaining more stability recently. I like their FD.

    Personally, I really love Nazarova & Nikitin; but they don't have the scores yet to make the argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  2. barbarafan

    barbarafan Well-Known Member

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    Love N&N
     
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  3. Weve3

    Weve3 Well-Known Member

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    I like your list and the order of it. For me, I get a little hung up on S&K as to where they will eventually land in comps. I am always surprised with their placements and I always feel like they are (semi) sleepers in the field for a higher placement, say a step up, maybe on a very good day for them, two. Many good teams for them to wade through.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  4. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

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    My list isn't really in order. I think of it more like groups or battles.

    Hurtado & Khaliavin, of course, are real wildcards.
     
  5. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    I dont think I've ever read such a positive assessment of Agafanova and Ucar. I would love to see them make it into the too ten.
     
  6. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers Well-Known Member

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    100% agree. Their FD this year is very lovely. I've been really unsure about these 2 as a team, even thinking maybe a Chock/Baker pairing might be a little better, or someone more the size and spirit of Marie-France Dubreuil. But H/B have gelled more this season, especially in their FD. There's a ton of talent and potential there. He is probably the best, most natural ice dancer in the US today. With the right supports and time, he is really the future for the US.

    The Shibs are now. They've been wonderful for a very long time, and consistently under-valued. It's really good to see them back in the mix, where they belong. C/B are the past. They rose at a time when skate-by-numbers was more the norm, but we have thankfully moved on to putting the dance back in ice dance again, as evidenced by P/C, V/M, C/L, Shibs, and W/P. And I really don't think that C/B are that well matched. They remind me more of a pairs team, to be honest. H/D are hit and miss for me. I'm actually ok with their SD. And I think Montreal has done wonders for them. But I'm not yet convinced they have the same technical quality and finesse of other US teams, and I think a couple of quality skates from H/B could surpass H/D.
     
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  7. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    Oh please! Grow up. You have been beating a dead horse for several pages and called out a mod. If you look back several people are leaving because of you and a couple others fandom.
    There is nothing intelligent about your discussion. But keep telling yourself that.
     
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  8. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    oh they quit because they can't tolerate technical discussions? and is that my problem? just because something is inconvenient/cumbersome as doing technical technical discussions, they quit? almost like saying they're only fair-weather friends.

    YOU are the one that called out the mods by saying "i hope the mods put an end to the problem children." read your post again. discussion of technical matters should cause you to do name calling? and is that a grown up thing to do?
     
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  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You're probably right about H/K having the talent and pedigree for the top ten, but still being a wild card at this point.

    I have a soft spot for Agafanova & Ucar, especially for him as someone who switched to ice dance so late, and seems to have worked really hard to make a go of it. Having to switch coaches and countries mid-season couldn't have been easy. If I'm not mistaken, Ucar is the oldest competitor in ice dance at the moment - a few months older than Luca Lanotte (yes, the baby Italians are the elders of ice dance these days!)
     
  10. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    This is a fan site. Yes we have rabid fans on here and obvious you are one of them.
    From what I can tell, you are a huge fan of V&M. You hide behind tech talk to prove your point they are better. Oh yeah, and you have seen them in person which make you an expert.
    When people start leaving a room/thread, that shows you are going overboard. Your omnipotent way on tech is your way of trying to tell people your favorite is the better of the teams. We all have our favorites. I doubt you are going to change anyone's mind.
    Yes, skating is judged and is subjective. It's been that way since they got rid of figures and even before that. Skaters/dancers are judged on past results and titles. It's hard to climb into the top 6.
    This started out pretty friendly chat about ice dance couples and now people have to weed through your BS to get to what they want to talk about.
    How about you make a thread about technical stuff and if people want to go in there and argue with you, I think that is the way to do it.
    I wasn't being a tattle tale on you. You already have pissed off at least one mod in here and it's pretty hard to get banned on this site.
    BTW, you are not the only one to see any of these skaters live. I bet I have spent more hours watching them live then you have.
     
  11. levineismine

    levineismine Well-Known Member

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    @Dobre thanks for your detailed analysis on the top 10 at Euros.
    My gut feeling is that Lauriault/LeGac are a good gueass to break the top 10, they've been rising slowly and skating consistently this year.
    Hurtado/Kaliavin as you and others said, if they get over the 'new team' jitters. They have lots of potential.
    L/P and K/S I think have the tendency to be inconsistent/messy or drop levels, if they skate clean they could very well make the top 10, but that's key. If not, I guess they still should be in the 11-15 placements.
     
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  12. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    did i call names? did i ask them to leave? they left of their own volition, didn't they? they have their choice/freedom to stay or ignore discussions/such posters they can't tolerate (as long as there's no low blowing such as calling people "stupid"). and it's not like they're not gonna come back either. were they banned? and as you said, it's a fan thread. people are welcome to enter/leave or just lurk for a while as they so wish. and as another poster has said before, it's not like it hasn't happened before in threads/forums.

    people were only asked to come up with their technical observations as to how/why p/c is superior as is a GREAT debate should be, or refute that blog by their own technical observations. instead, people only came up with suspicions and name calling. and i thought this was a DISCUSSION thread. as is with political discussions, it's not pleasant to everyone as not everyone has tolerance for such, but should such discussions be banned because of some people's intolerance for such? and not banning name-calling instead? what kind of fan would want people who would like to do such discussions in a fan/discussion thread to be banned instead?
     
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  13. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    @sap5 i thought this was a discussion thread ;) i guess technical discussions are not allowed here
     
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  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any thoughts about potential contenders for the top ten at Euros, or how the podium at US Nats is likely to shake out? I think most of the posters are more interested in these topics than in the specific technical discussion you seem to desire.

    p.s. I am very curious: is there any reason why you refuse to capitalize words at the beginning of your sentences?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  15. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    because you asked, i'll put in my thoughts as is appropriate for what's being asked (and not resorting to name-calling or suspicions)

    Euros? is there anyone else to take gold other than p/c? the russian contingent is such in a sad state of not developing top teams for a long while now, a sport they used to dominate. after p/c, it's a race between the italians and a russian team.

    US? the shibs are a lock for gold.
     
  16. cocotaffy

    cocotaffy Politicking for P/C to skate on whale sounds

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    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Not just the top of the podium - we were discussing the rest of the podium at US Nats and who will make the top ten at Euros. Ice dance isn't just about who gets gold!
     
  18. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    sorry i don't care about the rest of the top ten. i only care about the top 3. should that minimize me as a dance fan?

    that's the reason why i ignored the discussions for the top ten teams of whatever competition. did i resort to name calling for that? or suspicions? people can also ignore the technical discussions if they can't tolerate such without having to resort to low blows or threatening to ban people
     
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  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Having different interests and preferences from yours is hardly name calling. There's more than one way to be an ice dance fan.

    Personally, I think you're missing out. There are wonderful programs and performances from ice dancers who aren't a medal threat. For instance, one of my favorite free dances in recent years was Hurtado/Diaz's Surviving Picasso; Gilles/Poirier are a delight; I think Pechalat/Bourzat were more interesting in the 2006-10 quad than later; everyone loved the Kerrs; and and Coomes/Buckland had a great free dance last year - choreographed by her stepfather, and a Muse piece that was not Exogenesis!
     
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  20. wickedwitch

    wickedwitch Well-Known Member

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    yes.
     
  21. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    i'm aware of the lesser ranked teams like drobiazko/vanagas, p/b (definitely loved their 2008 OD; reminded me of a/p's 2002 flamenco), enjoyed a few programs from the kerrs, p/i (who recently retired), etc. i know g/p had one of their SDs being proposed as a compulsory pattern (though i've also seen disagreement on such with that SD being full of "figure-walking" from some sectors). so yeah, i'm aware of them. just not my inclination to discuss them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  22. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    as what @Zemgirl said: "There's more than one way to be an ice dance fan." some like the genteel discussions of who's on top 10, others would like the more hard core discussions of technicalities. so, is this thread excluding the type of fans who would like to discuss technical matters?
     
  23. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing for Hawayek & Baker. They have two good programs this season and are definitely showing improvement. In fact, they are having a terrific season.

    But they lost to Guignard & Fabbri at Golden Spin.

    Guignard & Fabbri are number 10. Number 10 from Worlds last season.

    We have at least two more international teams above them this season: Bobrova & Soloviev and Virtue & Moir.

    Sinitsina & Katsalapov lost to H&B and may or may not lose to G&F at Europeans, but that doesn't matter when it comes to Worlds because Stepanova & Bukin have defeated S&K twice and--unless Sinitsina & Katsalapov really step it up at Europeans--S&B are going to be Russia's #2 at Worlds. Hawayek & Baker lost to Stepanova & Bukin at Skate Canada.

    So, if you do the math . . .
    (These teams are totally not in order, but to my knowledge, none of them have been defeated by Hawayek & Baker in any portion of senior competition)
    V&M
    P&C
    Shibs
    B&S
    C&B
    W&P
    C&L
    H&D
    G&P
    S&B
    G&F

    -Coomes & Buckland currently out with injury but hoping to be back.
    -Hurtado & Khaliavin complete wildcards. (Very unlikely to be competitive for the top ten at this point, but we don't know where they might match up with Hawayek & Baker).
    -F-B&S. Defeated H&B in the short at the Autumn Classic this season. Feels like H&B have moved past that, but a split placement is a split placement. And Denmark is very close to Finland i.e. Worlds this season.

    Hubbell & Donahue had no trouble defeating Guignard & Fabbri. H&D also have wins and/or split placements with Bobrova & Soloviev, Chock & Bates, Weaver & Poje, and Gilles & Poirier. Essentially, what this means, is that--should it be necessary--Hubbell & Donahue can very likely help earn their own spot for the U.S. next season. (It's not a guarantee. H&D are currently #11 on the SB list and their short is an issue this season. I won't lie. It makes me nervous for their SD at Worlds. But either you are splitting placements with World medalists or you are not. Hubbell & Donahue are).

    H&B are knocking on the top ten.
    H&D are knocking on the final flight.

    The U.S. needs three dance spots next season. We need them because we have three teams that are competitive with reigning/previous dance medalists. We have three teams that can help earn their own spots.
     
  24. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    I think he/she talks about people who said : stupid, psychotic and shit.
     
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  25. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I didn't use any of those terms, so I don't see why there was any need to complain in response to my post.

    I think this thread works much better when we discuss a variety of teams and their outlook rather than people fixating on who might be the one team to rule them all and why other teams suck.
     
  26. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    my point is that if there are certain discussions that people don't like to engage in, then just ignore such discussions and put forth your own discussions without all the low blowing. i didn't say you did the name calling and low blowing, but i was just marking my point of not engaging in the discussion of top 10 teams of whatever competition as i choose to. i chose to ignore such discussions, as you have said "there's more than one way of being an ice dance fan." some fans like to focus their energies on the top 3, others like to spread it out more. some don't like discussing tech matters, others do.
     
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  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think all one has to do is simply ignore the blog and the posts relating to it if they don't want this thread to be dominated by it. If one has a real problem with it, or want to discuss all the specific points of the blog, then I think this thread is actually an appropriate thread since it's about ice dance. However, like most threads it'll naturally evolve to a different conversation, like the discussion of U.S. Nats and Euros which is getting really interesting thanks to the posters who have contributed to that discussion.

    So I think people can move on or if they want to discuss their disagreement with the blog, then critique the analysis if you don't want this thread to devolve into a humorless and simple fan war where people are just attacking each other rather than discussing any ice dance.
     
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  28. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    exactly!
     
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