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Technique question: deep edges.

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by krenseby, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

    I was in the audience for his exhibition at SC 2010, and after seeing that I concluded that his technique is divinely bestowed;)
  2. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Patrick has openly dedicated his skating skills to his late coach, Mr Colson. He kind of said that without Mr Colson, he wouldn't be where he is today. (I teared on that part :) )

    Why is it that some skaters have great edges and some not? It is due to the different approach and emphasis in early training in the different countries?
  3. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    I was in the audience for his 2011 Nationals LP and I second that his technique is divinely bestowed :)

    And thanks for the B/B link! That CD is mind blowing!

    You know, maybe they'll bring the CD's back. It's obviously an ever evolving system that hinges a lot on the feedback of experts and specialists. There must be a pool of individuals in power positions whom also believe in the value of the CD.
  4. jlmart

    jlmart Active Member

    I remember reading an interview with Patrick years ago in which he said he was so excited about moving to Mr Colson because he thought he would start learning the big jumps but Mr Colson made him do nothing but patterns on the ice for a long time. I think the suspicion is that he was doing figures which would explain a lot.
  5. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    That's what I've heard, too. Patrick does compulsories(patterns and figures) while training which is why his edges are so deep and fluid.
  6. BittyBug

    BittyBug Dispirited

    And this, in a nutshell, summarizes the issue. And I wonder whether the elimination of CDs will eventually lead to a deterioration of skills in dance as well.

    There was an interview a few years ago in which Patrick said that Mr. Colson was always demanding that Patrick get deeper into his knees (there might have even been a video clip of this), and I think that's at the core of his talent - he has incredibly deep, fluid and rhythmic knees that allow him to really pull his edges. Watch his knee action on a counter or rocker and how he sinks back into the edge after the turn.

    Figures could certainly be a contributing factor, but I think his knee action is much more so.
  7. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    Wow, they must still be using dial-up connections in your town. I guess I should be expecting a reply to this post sometime next year :lol:. (I jest :)).

    Having re-acquainted myself with the topic, I'll begin with the quibble that I prefaced my remarks with "as a general rule", and "all other factors being equal" ;). In all seriousness, the example was to illustrate some basic principles of physics as they might apply to skating, so the "male skater" was just a generic cut-out in my mind.

    Nevertheless, as you imply, Sergei was not just any generic male skater, and all factors are not equal, in his particular case. I will roll with you that he may have possessed talents of timing and balance which allowed him to skate much closer to the physical limits of his chosen technique, without crashing over them.

    If you're familiar with golf at all, an example that comes to mind is our newest Masters winner, Bubba Watson. As a passionate golfer, I can tell you that it's a universal truism that there is no way that someone with his swing technique should be able to win at the highest level. But his remarkable natural power, timing and "feel" allow him to overcome the schematic risks of his swing to "create" shots that those with more orthodox technique can't replicate. Doing your own thing is usually frowned upon in the now highly technical world of golf, and so it's quite meaningful and revealing that golf pros and commentators can now only describe Bubba's technical abilities (there is no aesthetically-related scoring in golf), in genuinely admiring tones, as that of "a true artist".

    I would think that maybe Sergei's technique falls into that category.

    But as in the case of Bubba, while Sergei's technique can be a source of wonder, I'm not sure that it is a model that can be successfully replicated by many others.
  8. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    Figures I think are a bit more upright and whilst show control, I am not sure contribute to depth of edge.

    The one thing I noticed about Chan (and from video only) is the incredible lean he gets on his crossovers. But it is balanced by his weight keeping to the outside of his circle. So his shoulders are level but underneath that he is leaning to the inside of his circle.

    Also whilst he has great knee bend he cannot do it without ankle flexion. You can tell a skater to bend their knees, but much of the actual control comes from the ankles and keeping them supple.

    I suppose at the end of the day Chan is still a feak.
  9. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    i suppose g/g's early training with zhuk (unconventional as it was like running over rocks) served them really well in the longterm, didnt it?
  10. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    isnt it interesting that in this talk about deep edges, when ice dancers are the supposed standard bearers of such, the discussion gravitates toward gordeeva-grinkov's skating technique instead? ;)
  11. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    In one of Christine Brennan's skating books Elena Valova commented that their training ice was so poor that when they competed at top competitions they just flew on the good ice.
  12. BittyBug

    BittyBug Dispirited

    What figures help you with is getting on the right part of your blade, which is a necessary but not sufficient skill for depth of edge. So it can definitely help, but depth of edge doesn't automatically follow doing figures (otherwise all of us who skated in the era of figures would be mini Chans, LOL). So I think your conclusion is probably right - he's just a freak. :lol:
  13. Mafke

    Mafke Well-Known Member

    Yes, AFAIK figures aren't about deep edges per se, they're about _control_ of edges from the ankle down and holding an edge mo matter what your upper body is doing.

    So many turns now seem cheated by contorting the body into making the turn happen rather than controlling the edges in and out of the turn. Wrongheaded scoring guidelines don't help here.
  14. smileyskate

    smileyskate Active Member

  15. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

    This is a great thread, and the explanation that there can be two ways of defining good strokes, one that uses edges and one that uses the flat part of the skate right behind the toe pick, has really clarified things for me.

    As far as Mao's stroke goes, I heard that she is exceptional at doing figure eights, which shows that she may not necessarily be (or have been) the best power stroker, but she is able to control her edges very well.

    I guess Mao is like G/G, and I think this is probably right because you can tell that Mao's posture is really good just by looking at her. Also, I went to a chiropractic for a while and he showed me how to correct my posture, and told me that people whose neck is perfectly aligned with their vertebrae and pelvis will have a double chin even if they are slim. And Mao has always had a slight double chin.

    Since going to Mr. Sato, I think Mao has learnt to generate speed more efficiently, and I heard that what he most corrected was her 'bouncy knees'. He apparently said that Mao had the habit of using her knees to instinctively slow down, and so he instructed her to just keep her body consistently low when stroking.
  16. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    Magnolia - thanks for that information. Very interesting.