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Should Tuktamysheva and Gachinski leave Mishin?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by risto1803, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. risto1803

    risto1803 Active Member

    I watched Liza's and Artur's performances at the Russian Nationals. From a Russian Champion Liza went down to 10th place. Her PCS scores are way lower than the top ladies. Yes, she made mistakes on some jumps, but the low PCS scores indicate that the programs that she skates to are not what the judges and the specialists want. She can do much better, but I think she is stuck in Mishin's world of tasteless programs and non-existing choreography. And Artur does not show any signs of enjoyment. I really hope they leave Mishin. Their technic is fine, they need fresh packaging and someone that will help them get their confidence back. Their season is over, and it was their worst ever. Very sad.
  2. alchemy void

    alchemy void blowing kisses with bitchface

    I admire Mishin as a coach but he has really failed Tuktamysheva this year. The fact she has reverted to her Adios Nonino SP two consecutive years is unforgivable.
  3. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

    Yes, that is a huge red flag for me. A good coach should be pushing her outside her comfort zone and teaching her to interpret many different styles. So many years of that terrible Adios Nonino program tells me that either he doesn't care about her, he doesn't care about her programs as long as she gets the jumps in, or that he has no idea what to do with her. That is not an Olympic calibre program by any stretch of the imagination.
  4. navire

    navire Member

    Veretennikova says she adviced Liza to change her SP, when they met at Golden Spin of Zagreb this December (she's coaching abroad now), and eventually Liza followed her advice.
    http://itar-tass.com/sport/863270 (in Russian)
  5. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

    Maybe both Tuktamysheva and Gachinski would feel happier with some other coach, but they still should work really hard. Gachinski has a good freeskate programme, and he is able to interpret it well. They both need a coach who can get them more confident.
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I'm sure Mishin has a team of people to help choreograph and package skaters to emphasize non-jump elements, but he really needs a Marina Zueva type of person on his team to work magic (without the history of kicking the tech. coach out and taking over their students fully).
  7. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

    It breaks my heart to see Artur in this position. He has a certain "dark" aura that looks perfect for more dramatic music like "Interview with a Vampire" that he used in 2011/2012. I find his FS this season to be beautiful.
    Gachinski certainly knows how to jump and is capable of being artistic. At this point I think that moving to Tarasova's radar of influence could be beneficial to him...
  8. puglover

    puglover Well-Known Member

    I can't help but remember back a few seasons ago when Tuk turned senior and I think her first Grand Prix was Skate Canada. I thought Rod Black was going to have an orgasm over her and he went on and on about her future and her domination for years to come. Puberty can be cruel and so untimely! I certainly don't know enough about her current situation to give advice, but she has a special something and I hope she is able to reach her potential. Plus, I love her name too.
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    The other sad thing for her is even if she had skated 2 perfect performances at Nationals, the way Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova skated, she probably would have finished only 3rd and still not made the team. She would have made the European team, but based on the seasons of Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova, unless Tuktamysheva had beaten one of them at both Nationals and Europeans, she was not going to make it. I guess she would have had to either skate alot better all season or skate better at last years Worlds and finish with the bronze medal to reach the magic 13, to even have a chance at the team.
  10. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka The Stolbova/Klimov and James/Cipres Uber

    I really feel for Liza. A few seasons ago, many foresaw her being on the podium at Sochi. Cometh the hour and she isn't even an alternate for Euros. It must hurt :(
  11. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

    Mishin does NOT shut off his students from outside choreographers. In fact, Liza's much-maligned long program this year was by - gasp! - Jeff Buttle (as was Artur's short). Liza also chose the Latin theme. She likes them. He does NOT restrict them artistically - the selection of Anna Karenina, for example, was made by Artur himself, not by Mishin or anyone else.

    Liza's problems are physical issues related to the onset of puberty. Artur's are predominantly psychological (with a few physical thrown in). No coach in the world can just magically wave a wand and fix either problem. Ever. Mishin is handling them very well, I think, with support and a gentle grace that other coaches would not manage. I mean, can you imagine, say, Tom Zakrasjek being so gentle with a skater whose body changed so radically as Liza's? Or with a skater who suffered such severe psychological problems as Artur's? I certainly can't - he'd likely have broken Liza already and tossed Artur on the scrapheap.

    A coach change is not a magical antidote to every problem. Sometimes it only makes the problem worse. Look at Abbott - all those coaching changes and no-one has ever managed to fix HIS head.

    What I think would benefit Artur most, would be to keep this season's programs again next year. They are very nice programs, especially the beautiful LP, and if he didn't have to worry about learning new programs, it might help him to sort through his problems with other things. (Okay, and the selfish fan-part of me just wants to see Anna Karenina as many times as possible.)
  12. Holy Headband

    Holy Headband New Member

    Even though I don't like her programmes, I can't help but root for Tuktamysheva. I think she'll be fine. As someone said, puberty hit her harder than most and it will take time to adjust to her new body on the ice. It may take a few years, even, because once you lose momentum with the judges it can be hard to get it back, but I think she has the potential to fight her way back to the top. It seems she's destined for a late-blooming career, in relative terms, which is not always a bad thing.

    I don't even know what to say about Gachinski. I like him a lot and wish he could reset his career and start from scratch. I don't know if Mishin is telling him this, but he needs to forget he was ever a World medallist, in my opinion. He was a different skater then; comparisons to his past accomplishments are fruitless and can only make him feel like a failure. He can't go back to that point in his career or recreate it. He can only build on what he has right now, which is really a blessing in disguise--a chance to let go of people's expectations and reinvent his skating in a way he likes.

    It's good that Mishin has him working with people like Lambiel and Buttle because it signals an awareness on Mishin's part that Artur needs a change in direction and exposure to different approaches to skating, but I want to see signs of this work in his programmes during the season.

    But yes, I'm actually impressed with the way Mishin is handling Gachinski; he seems really patient and supportive and at least intellectually aware that his traditional coaching methods can't meet all of Gachinski's needs. I don't think a change of coaches would work here because no one else would believe in Artur as strongly as Mishin does, and that seems absolutely necessary for his self-esteem right now. But the guy needs a sports psychologist and a staff choreographer or junior coach to resist Mishin's natural programme-gutting tendencies during the season, and maybe a short break from the sport to clear his head and give him some perspective.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  13. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

    That's nice, but the problem is that Mishin deletes choreography from his students' programs. I actually quite like some of Artur's musical choices but Liza should not be allowed to have the same Latin program for years on end because it places her in an artistic rut and presents her to the judges as a one-trick pony, artistically. Mishin's skaters are generally deficient in choreography, transitions, and spins. I don't see much of Buttle or Lambiel's influence in the choreography. Absent the very real issues of Liza's growth spurt and Artur's personal issues, they have serious problems with their skating that Mishin is either unable or unwilling to address. That's the point that people are making. Mishin's track record on spins, choreography, transitions, stretch, line, posture is not amazing. He teaches amazing jump technique, and I think he's helped Liza harness her natural charisma in the same way he helped Plushenko, but all her spunk and fire can't overcome her low spin levels, her low TR scores, and her bad posture.

    What do you mean, "all those coaching changes?" Jeremy went to Tom Z when he was 14 and switched coaches to Jason and Yuka ten years later.
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Mishin can definitely teach proper jump technique but his 'only jumps matter' approach is outdated and doesn't cut it any more, under IJS.

    Yes, Mishin's skaters work with outside choreographers but what is the point if he then scraps the programs or takes all of the difficult stuff out?
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  15. Nomad

    Nomad Celebrity cheese-monger

    Well, something isn't working; I won't venture to guess what. It just seems that Gachinskii's senior career has been more miss than hit, and maybe a change would help.
  16. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    Okay, fine.

    So, to all those who are so set on sending either or both skaters elsewhere:

    Who would you send them to?

    Tarasova is obviously out.
  17. risto1803

    risto1803 Active Member

    Rafael Arutunian.
  18. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    Oh yes. Because I'm sure an American coach would do their political standing with their federation so much good.
  19. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    My sense is that she feared this was the most likely scenario all season long, and all summer, too. From what I saw at SA, she skated a lot better in practice than in competition.
  20. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

  21. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

    Rafael is an Armenian-Russian living in America, isn't he? Other countries send skaters to him all the time. Russia sent ice dancers to Marina Zueva's group. I don't see why Tarasova is automatically an impossibility either.

    If domestic coaches are mandatory, Liza should go to Eteri Tutberidze. She and Ilia Averbukh did very well this season designing interesting programs to mask Julia's flaws, and they appear to be working on her other issues at a good clip. Goncharenko might work too. Artur I would also send to Tutberidze.
  22. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    So you want to remove Artur from a situation with Plushenko and put him straight in with Kovtun, with whom he has bad blood, and which I'm sure will do wonders for his psychological problems, which undoubtedly weren't helped by seeing Kovtun do WORSE than he did at Worlds and get coddled for it?
  23. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

    Why are you being so vicious? Why are you assuming that every suggestion in this thread is a plot to destabilize Artur and Liza? And why are you assuming that Artur is so mentally weak as to be unable to deal with a little in-rink rivalry? He's not a china doll and he'snot a child. He's a young man who has been strong enough to stay in the sport even through a couple of weak seasons. Perhaps having an opponent who is more on his level and able to be surpassed will let Artur relax a bit. Skating every day with one of the masters of the sport must be good in some levels, but it might also be hard for him to judge himself accurately and above all positively.
  24. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller #1 Dick Button Fan

    Tuk will likely not progress (will keep dropping) in Russian Nationals standings, considering the depth of talent in Russian Jr and Novice ladies. Given her Central Asian roots, I would not be surprised to see skating for another country in 1 or 2 years' time.
  25. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

    That is a weird assertion. Liza is a Russian citizen born in Russia to Russian citizens, she might be part of one of Russia's ethnic minorities but that doesn't mean she'll automatically be able to get citizenship for a central Asian country.
  26. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    There are tons of good coaches in Russia. Rukavitsyn sounds really kind and thoughtful and he also works in Saint-Petersburg.
  27. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    What Central Asian roots? :confused:

    She's from Glazov in the Western Urals. I would think it's far more likely that she's an Udmurt than anything else.
  28. navire

    navire Member

    Wait. Kovtun said once they didn't get on well when they were 11-13 y/o and you assume they have bad blood? :)
    They aren't buddies, that's right, but ever since Maxim is on top level Artur never said a bad word of him; Artur is very correct about other skaters, usually he doesn't even mention anybody if he's not asked the direct question.
    Here's what he said of Kovtun after the SP at Rostelecom Cup:
    Maxim gathered two quads in the SP, that itself is a good result, for now he is the only one who does this in Russia. He was great and received good points, but we also won't surrender without fighting.
    That doesn't look like he has some problem with Max. He just minds his own business.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  29. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Tutberidze's Group is crowded already, she has Julia, Voronov, Pitkeev, Medvedeva etc
    I doubt she can accompany that many skaters
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    Even if they don't have bad blood, I doubt that Tarasova will be able to politically push two skaters that are competing against each other. It just won't be a good situation. It could be worse than Yagudin & Plushenko in Mishin's group.

    IMO both Liza and Artur learned jump techniques from Mishin which is good. Mentally they are not tough like Plushenko, so they would need coaches that can work on that aspect, and packaging. I don't know enough about the coaches in Russia, and don't know if they are willing to move abroad to train (not necessarily to compete for another country). otherwise Brian Orser may be a good coach for Artur.