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Should the Short Dance be Eliminated?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by sap5, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    pani over in the V&M thread posted the following:

    What does everyone think? Should the SD replaced? Would just the OD be enough?

    I'd rather see the CD and OD come back, rather than just have an OD and FD. I also think the SD has been shown in the worst light so far -- almost everyone had been burned out watching the Golden Waltz as a pattern, and now we have the Rhumba which isn't really a rhumba. Maybe if the SD had started with the Finnstep or something more exciting to see, it would have stood a better chance.
  2. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    I originally posted this thought in the V/M thread, but for this ice dance fan of 20 years now, the SD feels like an ISU experiment gone wrong. My preference would be for both the CD and OD to return. The CD was really the only way to compare apples to apples, so to speak.

    If the choice is only an OD or SD, then bring back the OD. Maybe they would at least consider bringing the CD back through the junior level.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  3. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

    I don't like the SD .Sometimes I think ,if there is only to be two sections to the competition , I'd rather see the return of the OD or even OSP ..or maybe even just the CD (in a streamlined form..updated music with more selections , very simplified costumes.)..In other words anything but the SD..:lol:

    With all the use of different tempos for the patterns, and even the twisting of time signatures , I can't see that it provides a very good apples to apples assessment. Oh , I know it's not really apples to apples, but how close each couple can come to the ideal..but still when one couple's tempo is much faster ( or slower ) than another's, isn't that already more than one ideal ?...I don't know , it's just not floating my boat.:(

    I don't know that I feel qualified to propose any real constructive alternative, except to compare to the other formats we've already seen ( both of which I prefer ) but I can't see what would be so wrong with aka_gerbil's suggestion to keep the CD through Juniors , and either an OD or OSP at Seniors.
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    I used to love the CD- the simplicity of it was attractive. I am OK with bringing either that or the OD back in place of SD. I would not want ice dance to have just FD though. Like the other 3 disciplines ID needs two programs.
  5. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Part of the problem with the short dance is that it is attempting to satisfy too many issues:

    - Does it have a set rhythm?
    - Does it have a set pattern?

    By making it the dancers' version of a short program, throwing required elements into the mix unsettles the timing and placement of the first two.
  6. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't be surprised if they created the SD so that we'd all feel grateful and breathe a sigh of relief when they reinstate the OD and take out all traces of the compulsory dance completely.
  7. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    I never understood the purpose of the OD, but I loved the CD. I'm in favor of CD and FD.
  8. immoimeme

    immoimeme my posts r modded

    Yes. In it's current incarnation, it's extreeemely annoying.
  9. Cloudy_Gumdrops

    Cloudy_Gumdrops New Member

    That's what I want too.

    At a certain point, the OD became nothing more than a shorter FD. I don't want that again.
  10. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

    One thing I loved about the OD was the theme. Seeing how the different teams interpreted it. Definitely had more creativity options for the skaters. I really see little point in having the seniors skate CDs but I definitely would like to see it for ice dancers up through the junior ranks. That way we would have a definitive way to compare the teams and the superior teams would rise to the top as they were ready to make the move to seniors. And it's not that the Senior teams still can't improve on their CDs but I really think by Seniors they would rather concentrate on the performance and creativity.

    The SD in its current form is still very problematic and I think they still need to come up with a better solution.
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Hate the SD but I don't like Scott's comments about the rhumba steps dating back to 1964. So what? He's always been so anti-compulsory which is weird to me since V&M were so good at them. If the CD still existed they would probably have a cushion to start out every competition, yet he was one of the proponents of getting rid of it.

    The problem with the SD is it gives the worst of both worlds... ruins the OD by crowding in another element and taking away even more freedom. Yet it also ruins the CD portion because they have assigned arbitrary "levels" to key points. The whole point of levels under CoP is that they measure the difficulty of an element. When all skaters are performing the same element, they don't need a degree of difficulty. The CDs were supposed to be judged as a whole that included expression, edges, cleanlineness of steps, unison, line, posture, timing, etc. Now it's been reduced to a couple of key steps that even the weaker skaters can just practice enough to get level 4 and then beat overall better dancers (hello, Tobias/Stagniunas and Coomes/Buckland at Euros).
  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    I think the Short Dance is awesome and should be kept! I was such a skeptic before I saw some. I really like that there are two patterns that can be compared but that there is more that is original to the couple and fun to watch.

    Waiting for :lynch:
  13. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

    I really dislike the SD. It is stifling creativity. Under this format we will not have another stand out program like D/W's Indian OD again. I also dislike how arbitrary the calling of the key points seems to be. The skaters complain how it varies from competition to competition. And I am NOT looking forward to Lawrence Welk, I mean Polka next season.

    Of course I am not a fan of CD either. The same music and same steps made me crazy (because I heard the music for days afterwards, don't know how the skaters kept from going nuts).

    I vote for the OD and FD.
  14. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

    I was skeptical at first too but I'm really enjoying the Short Dances. This season it seemed to really separate the great skaters from the good skaters. They can be creative all they want in the free dance. I'm looking forward to the Polka and the Finnstep! Scott Moir's doing a lot of whining lately, IMO.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  15. Casey2

    Casey2 Active Member

    I don't have a firm opinion of what direction dance should lake. While I think the SD has some problems, I would hate to see the precision and discipline of the OD lost forever. I also would not like to see a short FD and a long FD. The OSP was interesting and allowed for a lot of different presentations. (Some of the OSPs became CDs as well.) I enjoyed seeing dance pairs doing the same ODs, so that I could compare technique (although I am no technic). In the back of my head, I remember that the elimination of figures in singles skating seemed to allow skaters forget about control and edges.
  16. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    I don't get this. SDs and ODs are exactly the same program. Take out the CD sequence and stick a closed hold footwork sequence in it's place and you got a OD. I don't think the format stifles creativity and more than the OD did.

    Now, if we're talking about going back to the true "Original Dance", the ones from the 90's that were two and a half minutes of intricate and original choreography that required spot-on partnering and interpretation, then I'm all for it. D&W would never win an OD phase again. :lol:

    But as it stands, I'd rather have a program with a a compulsory in it than not, considered taking it out pretty much means seeing the same closed hold sequence we would see again in the FD anyway. :blah:
  17. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

    I dont think the SD has been given a fair chance. I would like to see a SD limited to ONE rhythm and see if that makes for a better dance. Last year my favorite programs were mostly all waltzes. This year's SDs sucked - the too frequent changes in rhythm just made the program seem a mish-mash, and most of the music was awful to listen to. [I thought V/M would have had a better program if they just used Temptation, for example].

    And as several posters have pointed out, the rhumba CD is not very good - not enough rhumba and tended to interfere with the program rather than add to it. Next year's polka programs seem :yikes::yikes: :scream::scream:

    I'd like to see them make a serious effort to eliminate the CDs that dont work in this format and concentrate on the ones that do. Limit it to one rhythm and lets see what kind of dances we get. At least for one season.

    And for people who want to get rid of the SD, be careful what you wish for. From what I read they want to replace it with a particular series of steps incorporated into an O/D. They're not bringing back CDs.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Those were the ODs that I loved.... like in G&P's golden days... :swoon: It's gotten progressively less free since then... first the inclusion of the no touch step sequence and other elements, then the code of points made couples recycle a lot of the same elements and steps, and now with the SD everyone literally has to do the same steps for two patterns.
  19. Braulio

    Braulio Pleasantly pleasing with Peggy

    I do not like the SD at all, is so weird all the mixing waltz-tangos last season and now is horrible with the attempts at latin with a rhumba that clearly isn´t

    Bring back CD, OD and FD

    but being realistic, bring back the OD
  20. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

    Maybe the SD still need some revisions. I like the idea of having ONE pattern. Going back to the CD/OD poses its own problems.
  21. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    I just saw this part in the article:
    No wonder V&M are nervous. That dance could be the great equalizer.

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    I love the Finnstep!

    The sd not so much.
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    I think they should dump the SD and replace it with the CD with the current tech panel level marking or return to the OSP, revised to include a few required features that the teams can use anywhere in their pattern, to be repeated three times. I don't see the usefulness of the OD, if there's a FD.
  24. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  25. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

    I also think that the OD should come back, with one pattern and lots of points for originality and expression, choreography and a real reflection of the dance. If it's a tango, it should be a tango; if it's a waltz, a waltz, etc. Points should also reflect edge quality, flow, not just speed and I'd like there to be NO twizzles, I'm sick of seeing them.
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    This is only the second season it has been in and whilst I would prefer the old format, if they are going to keep it, I think it needs to be given more time to iron out the kinks. And they probably need to use the more difficult pattern dances as part of it as that does sort out the couples out. The Golden Waltz for me worked better than the Rhumba. The Rhumba was kind of like blink and you miss it. At least a more difficult pattern dance is more of a challenge and has more substance.
  27. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Also from that "article",
    Can we get rid of the twizzles and footwork sequence as well since they slow a lot of team's routines down too? :D
  28. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Aren't the CD and OSP different things entirely?

    I used to love both the CDs and ODs - especially loved the two folk themed ODs in recent years.

    The SD has failed to grow on me - I liked it better last year than year. This year most of the programs felt like set rhumba patterns choreographed into 'free' programs that were incomplete and unsatisfactory. The waltz pattern just worked better.

    I like the idea of an OSP or OD with required elements, and the required elements could include a set pattern. What about allowing the skaters to pick any set pattern? That would free up the possibilities of the dance/OD/OPS tremendously - and give ice dancers similar options to those of singles and pairs.

    An OD or OPS would/should be the equivalent of a SP in singles and pairs.
  29. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Reformed Manspreader

    I hate the SD as well. I miss the CD and OD.
  30. miffy

    miffy Well-Known Member

    I'd be happy with a CD and FD but I am sure I am in the minority (and TV stations would probably not show much of the CD.) But I just find a lot of ice dance teams who can COP-blitz their way to the top wouldn't have been very good at CDs and I think it's a shame that ice dance has come to this. :( I miss the CDs.