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Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Maofan7, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. elif

    elif Well-Known Member

    If I were a coach not only I will say them, I will prepare them if something like this happened a competiton. For example Soloviev fell before their step sequence at GPF 2012. They continued their program. They lost timing and speed. Levels and GOE effected by this. You can see this if you look at the protocols. But if they were stopped and Soloviev says the referee something happened his legs after the fall, they will have 3 minutes and with that also speed and timing going into the steps. Skaters don't skate their full programs at training so its not that hard to skate after the break. Soloviev didn't do this so when you looked the protocols you see a mistake. You can't see this 4CC and WJC protocols.
  2. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I assume you meant she would be more likely to make mistakes than if she isn't as tired/ breathless ;)

    I'm reading your post again: if you weren't trying to imply that her stopping was being a convenience for them, maybe you'll want to reword things differently, even if I admit you didn't outright call them cheaters

    I still stand by what I say: the advantage of catching your breath is offset by having to rebuild the adrenaline levels, having to refocus and go back into character. I would even go as far as saying that the risks are bigger than the advantage. The question of being able to attempt a difficulty again after being aborted, on the other hand, is more problematic and I agree that it must be addressed clearly if there is a possibility as things stand now to use and abuse any existing loophole in the rules (ps: I haven't re-read the current rules regarding the circumstances under which you're allowed/ not allowed to re-attempt an aborted difficulty)
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  3. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    There definitely should be an OT deduction among the other deductions mentioned here.
  4. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Good point. I honestly don't believe any of the 3 dance teams that have taken breaks this season were being dishonest, but I could see teams using this in the future. I agree that people are not going to stop for no reason or just to take a breath - that's ridiculous - they are conditioned to get through the program and they're not going to want to lose momentum. But I can see coaches telling the skaters that if you already made a big mistake, you may as well try to get the break so you can, if nothing else, build up speed for the next element. At that point, you're probably already out of the medals or dropping a place anyway, so the break can't hurt (whereas it would hurt you to take a break if you haven't made any other mistakes). And it's not even necessarily lying - it hurts to fall down, so it's prudent to take a moment to check that you're not seriously injured.

    So yeah, they really need to change something before this becomes a bigger problem. Maybe make it that only the referee can stop the program for injury. That would mean the injury would have to be visible to the referee. If it is not, then the music stays on and the skater can take 30 seconds or whatever to sit on the ice or go to the boards, but they lose that time in the program, and possibly incur deductions for excessive breaks. Does that still exist? There had been, I think, a deduction for when you fall and are too slow to get back up (with the music still playing).
  5. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    I take it 4CC doesn't rate as an important enough competition to be included with Euros/Worlds/Olympics? So skaters from Europe are allowed a break at their competition, but skaters from Asia/Americas/Australia etc are not allowed a break at theirs?
  6. luna_skater

    luna_skater Well-Known Member

    - Deleted. Quote fail.
  7. Suze

    Suze Active Member

    I think the fairest way to handle a disruption 60 seconds or less in a program is to deduct a point from the overall score (like a fall) regardless of the reason. Any disruption longer than that will be an automatic DNF (did not finish) disqualification.

    If the rules are applied universally at all skating competitions and communicated clearly that there are no exceptions (i.e. even for true emergency reasons), then it is fair. It is the athlete's responsibility to come to the meet in competition-ready form (I.e. don't compete if you're still nursing an injury!) and have all their equipment (skates, costume, etc) checked prior.
  8. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

    I like this: The aspect of figure skating that I find so difficult is that you work so hard for just a few minutes on the ice. If something does go wrong a small deduction is acceptable to me but I would hate to see a huge deduction. Skaters don't have the luxury of plenty of time spent in competition like baskeball or volleyball.
  9. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

    You refer to the necessity of building back the adrenaline. However, excessive adrenaline- a very frequent occurence under pressure- is just as detrimental as not having enough, so it purely depends on an individual. Somebody who is flooded with adrenaline and cannot think straight, or hyperventilates, would greatly benefit from a 3-minute- break. It varies too much from person to person to be taken into consideration ( as a person who has excessive adrenaline under pressure and have been learning to deal with it all my life, I know what I am talking about).
    And skaters start from different elements in practice all the time, and talk about necessity of building up the endurance to get through the whole program.
    I am not for draconian rules, but certainly for a deduction, and perhaps a stricter time limit.
  10. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    No, but what about gymnasts? They also work very hard for a few minutes programs and they don't have second chances. Is gymnastics 'safer' than figure skating? Aren't injuries common in gymnastics? Does anyone take 3 minutes off in the middle of their bar routine and then finish without having any deductions?
  11. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    You have a point. I must say though that I don't know anyone who would rather have a breather in the middle of a performance rather than continue even if that means discomfort or even pain, unless it becomes impossible to continue without risking injury/ aggravating an already existing injury (well, I think most sports require you to learn to push through various levels of discomfort and even pain, anyway, if only to complete training sessions). Then again I don't know anyone who has struggled with adrenaline levels the way you describe. Sure, I've known situations when I have been hyperventilating/ where I have pretty much lost coherent thought-process (a risk in endurance running), but I can't say I've experienced that chronically so I can't judge and take your point onboard ;)

    And like you, I'm not against deductions per se but against the "well, you really have to stop? Too bad, the door is there" stance
  12. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    Don't you? Even if you were so desperate that you would be willing to do anything to win, you made a mistake and you knew that if you stop, have a break and restart, you will be able to repeat the element that you did not start correctly and give up on? I know quite a few people who would do it. After all, under the current rules it is not against the rules and it is not negatively marked, so it actually pays off. It is a strategy.
  13. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I was exclusively addressing the principle of "taking a breather". The ability to repeat an aborted element is another, seperate issue which, as I was saying in my one before last post in this thread, needs to be addressed ;)
  14. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I'd like to see a decision tree for the referee something like this:

    Should I stop the program when I see or hear something going wrong?
    -Is the skater in imminent danger of injury (e.g., dragging pants strap, detritus on ice) or exacerbating an already-evident injury? STOP
    -If the skater continues skating under the current conditions (e.g., bleeding, shedding costume parts, on the verge of vomiting) will it present a hazard to the next skater and require a delay to clean up the ice, perhaps including a resurface? STOP
    -Is the problem something from an outside source that will prevent the skater from completing the program at all or from being judged fairly (e.g., music failure, lighting failure, fire alarm) STOP

    Otherwise, allow the skater to continue or to stop on their own initiative.

    If the skater stops on his/her own initiative, should s/he be allowed to restart?*

    -Can the problem be fixed within the time limit (2 or 3 minutes?) ALLOW RESTART from the point of interruption*
    -Will it delay the competition by more than the allowed time to solve a problem that affects only this skater? DISQUALIFY
    -Will the whole competition for all remaining skaters be delayed until the problem is solved?
    ALLOW RESTART from beginning of program or from point of interruption, depending skater's preference, on how far into the program the problem occurred, and/or length of delay (rules to specify when each apply); NEW WARMUP for all skaters including the one whose program was interrupted if it's been more than X minutes since the original warmup ended

    *The point of interruption could be when the skater stopped skating, when the music stopped, or when the referee noticed a hazard and blew the whistle. If more than one of these things happened, use the first one?

    If the referee stops the program OR the skater stops on his/her own initiative and then resumes, should there be an official deduction from the segment score?

    -Was the source of the problem within the skater's sphere of responsibility? (skater's body, skates and clothing, music media supplied by skater) YES DEDUCTION

    The reason this deduction should be small is to encourage skaters to stop if there's a problem that poses immediate danger that can be quickly fixed.

    -Was the source of the problem within the sphere of responsibility of the venue, competition organizers, and/or the world outside the venue? NO DEDUCTION

    Because the source of a music problem can be ambiguous, if it's not clear where the problem lies the skater should get benefit of the doubt. I think we can rest assured that no one is going to intentionally submit a bad CD in hopes of getting a rest in the middle of a program.

    My recommendation is to have a small mandatory deduction (1.0) from the segment score taken by the referee IF a program is stopped either by the skater or by the ref because of a problem in the skater's sphere of responsibility. I don't want to say "fault" because sometimes it's just bad luck. I think we would have to include falls or injury during a program tripping over a rut in the ice caused by previous skaters skating -- that's part of the intrinsic variability of the the competition surface in this sport, and skaters should be used to dealing with chopped-up ice although it's not ideal. More seriously unsafe ice conditions caused by compressor failures, etc., would come under the category of problems in the venue sphere of responsibility that will take more than 3 minutes to solve.

    It might also make sense to write rules recommending specific PCS reductions to the judges, to be applied in addition to the 1.0 deduction from the segment score, IF the referee has determined that the stop was due to a reason within the skater's sphere or responsibility.

    There could also be separate but related recommended PCS reductions for breaks in the program in which the skater stops performing and then resumes while the music continues playing and the program is finished within the time limit of the music but with an interruption of several seconds in the middle.

    Or if the program is stopped so close to the end that the partial program could be officially scored without restarting to perform the final movements after the last element or without a skater who is injured and unable to continue within 3 minutes had stopped so close enough to the end that they prefer to be scored on what they did than to be withdrawn.
    ioana and (deleted member) like this.
  15. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    I'm probably going to regret this, but I'm truly curious about something. There have been rules in place for decades now allowing--even requiring-- skaters to stop their programs for various reasons. For crying out loud, G/G at the 1987 European Championships? They didn't stop their program and got disqualified for it, leading to some outrage over their disqualification. In the past, skaters have been applauded for being brave and continuing on to finish their programs. Why all of the outrage now all of a sudden when there have been various stops over the years? Is it because it was the particular team (V/M) who stopped? My suspicion is that most people would be singing a different tune if D/W or any other team or skater had stopped.
  16. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    That's pretty much what I'd like to see. Only presented in a much more organized and articulate way ;)
  17. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    I don't think there is ever problem with music at Europeans/4CC/Worlds competition that can possibly be skater's fault. The music is collected from the skaters well in advance and then played at the official practices. I think they have practice about twice a day for a few days before their competition, so if the music would work every day at the official practices, then suddenly stopped working during the competition, there is no way that it could be the skater's fault. It would be the music system at the rink.

    Saying that, on some small competition where they don't have official practice with program run throughs, fault with music could be the skaters fault because the CD could be faulty.
  18. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

    But by the time they work their way through a detailed decision tree, even more time will have lapsed....
  19. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    No and no. V/M aren't the only team that has stopped mid-FD. And this thread only appeared after a third team stopped mid FD this season. I don't think this discussion has anything to do with who the skaters are.
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. literaryfreak

    literaryfreak Well-Known Member

    This thread was started after Papadakis/Cizeron stopped at Jr. Worlds. Everything doesn't revolve around V/M.
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    Exactly. The discussion is because it is becoming a trend now. After a long time not having any incidents like that (I don't count Zhangs because everyone could see the problem there) we suddenly have three incidents in ice dance during one season. And in all three incidents there is nothing clearly visible (not bleeding hand from cutting it by the blade by Duhamel, not a huge fall on quad throw jump). While no one is directly saying that the skaters were not injured, the posters here want to know why suddenly there is such an increase of these incidents in major international competitions. And whether this is fair towards other competitors or not. And whether potentially there is a room for abuse...

    It has nothing to do about who the skaters were. Besides, it is not the fault of the skaters, it is the system that allows it.
    ioana and (deleted member) like this.
  22. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Do technical specialists and judges read through all the rules while judging a performance? Obviously no - they have to read the rules beforehand. It would be the same with the rules for interruptions in programs.
  23. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

    I don't know---I'm not familiar with gymnastics rules. And I was agreeing with a poster who supports a deduction if the skater has to stop.
  24. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    I would hope that they have to KNOW the rules, as opposed to just read it beforehand!
  25. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Sports can't be judged on the same level because they are so different. Missing a grip of the bar and falling or falling off a beam is far more prevalent in each competition than a skater stopping program. If a gymnast falls off the beam or bars, they do not ask them to leave the competition they are given a deduction just like skaters get when they fall and get to finish the routine if they can. The ISU must not see it being such a big deal and I doubt skaters will keep doing it to be dishonest. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
  26. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

    But you still have a set amount of time to get back on the apparatus and finish the routine after you fall off. I think it's 30 seconds, but could be wrong about that. 2 minutes is significantly longer.
  27. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    I don't quite understand the comparison with other sports, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Each sport has its own rules which are specifically developed for that particular sport.

    As far as the technical specialists and judges reading or knowing the rules, I'm guessing no one can serve as a technical caller or a judge until they've passed some tests and aren't they also testing the candidate's knowledge of the rules in force?
  28. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    That is what I meant - I just didn't formulate it in a precise manner. I should have used the word "know" instead of "read". But that would involve reading them, would it not ;)?
  29. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

    Comparing other sports is indeed apples and oranges, for the most part. This is especially true when you compare to team sports. In a team sport EVERYONE benefits from a break. Both teams in football, for example, get to take a breather, get something to drink, talk to their coaches, etc. They both have the same amount of time. This just isn't true in a sport like figure skating. The only skater who gets to take advantage of stopping is the skater who stops. There MUST be a penalty and IMO it should be a point PLUS mandatory PCS deductions of some sort. 1 point is not enough, IMO. The only time I would let it go is it there was a problem completely out of the skaters control. A muscle cramp is not a good enough excuse. These are elite athletes, they should be prepared to compete at the highest level without cramping. If they can't do that then too bad. Take the deduction or withdraw.
  30. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Under the present rule, skaters are not allowed to repeat any portion of the program already skated. Elements were repeated back when the rule called for a total restart, but now the skaters are supposed to pick up at the point of the interruption. I think folks are confused on this point because of the recent V-M incident when the official allowed then to go well back into their music to do the lift they had skated through. The officials probably erred in that case. (The BBC commentator thought so, anyway.)

    And in answer to the folks who can't believe skaters would stop as a strategy choice even when they could have continued, yes it has happened (Bernadis telling Abitbol to stay down after a fall on a throw jump being one example).

    I would agree with not punishing skaters for things entirely outside their control, like problems with lighting or the sound system. Still, Rodnina-Zaitsev might argue otherwise: