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Royalty Thread #4 Nappies and Nuptials

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by taf2002, Dec 3, 2012.

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  1. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

  2. Guinevere

    Guinevere Well-Known Member

    I was so excited I set my alarm to wake me up at 2am Vancouver time to watch the announcement re: Richard. Woke up at 2am, and fell back asleep and woke up at 3:34am. So I missed it all but thank God for twitter!! Very excited, this is the kind of thing that only happens in movies. To think that this entire thing was driven by a few people only, and they raised the funds to start the digging, I`m very happy for them!! Most archaeology seems to be reactive and a result of something found by accident but this was set out with a purpose and it was actually achieved!! Very exciting!!

    On the other hand, it`s quite shocking to hear about the injuries to the body. They thought there were only 2 injuries to the skull but there were really 8 to the skull and 2 more to the body. Goes to show how brutal medieval war was.
  3. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

    I am thrilled with this fabulous news story as well. I can't wait until they have a whole long report with all the details and a TV show too! I have long been a champion of historical characters who seemed to have been misrepresented by history because the "winners" write it. I'm a big Revwar fan with a Loyalist bent, though a citizen of the US. Richard III is another one of those characters who might not have been saints but who weren't the monsters they've been accused of being. Of course, his being discovered doesn't mean he'll get a personality makeover, but we'll see what the renewed interest in him instigates.
  4. Guinevere

    Guinevere Well-Known Member

    They released the facial reconstruction. It looks an awful lot like the portrait, with the nose and chin the same. But I always wonder how accurate these are, because I would think the facial reconstruction would be influenced by their belief it was Richard at the time they were doing the construction.

  5. LilJen

    LilJen Reaching out with my hand sensitively

    If y'all haven't read it, The Daughter of Time is a lovely mystery novel that explores the whole "did he or didn't he?" issue wrt RIII and the nephews in the Tower.
  6. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

    Elizabeth Peters's "Murders of Richard III" is another good one.
  7. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

    Jenny, I don't know if you would be interested in watching documentaries on Henry VIII, but I've found several on youtube, that are British, and seemed to have been produced around 2009 to mark the 500th anniversary of Henry VIII becoming king. One is a David Starkey documentary, and a decent portion of it deals with Henry's childhood, and there's another one called Henry VIII: Patron or Plunderer and the beginning of it also deals with his childhood. I'll see if I can search for the youtube links later. I know they're pretty easy to find on my account.
  8. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Try the book "Winter King"--it's a little slow going for "pop" history (it's marketed as such but it's not what I'd call an easy read like "John Adams", for example, which is very scholarly but flows like a novel) but it goes into a lot o depth especially about the later years of Henry VII's reign (and includes a handy family tree at the start. It...could use some more branches, actually.)
  9. Alixana

    Alixana Definitely NOT a sonogram

    This .. Josephine Tey was a fabulous writer.
  10. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    As I understand it there was some computer work done to approximate depth of muscles, etc. Perhaps that prevented the artists from being influenced by their knowledge of Richard's portraits (none contemporary I believe).

    Even the skull has a chin similar to the portraits. I believe it is a faithful rendering of the Plantagenet King. He was quite handsome imo.

    I still believe he had his little nephews, Edward V and Richard, Duke of York murdered though. They disappeared under his 'care'. He had his brother Edward IV marriage declared illegitimate and had his young nephews declard bastards. He wanted that crown-and he got it. But not for long.

    Now I wish they could identify the Little Princes. The bones in the urn at Westminster may be theirs-or not. I also wish they'd try and identify the remainds at Saint Peter Ad Vincula. It would be amazing if they could find the remains of Henry VIII's murdered queens Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard, as well as so many of his victims. I also have a fondness for Lady Jane Grey and Lord Guildford Dudley. I wish their remains could be identified as well. With the advances in DNA it is entirely possible. Some of the parents of the victims are buried in elaborate tombs. The remains of the mothers especially might provide enough DNA to match them to their children. Ah well. It's a long-held fantasy of mine.

    I love facial reconstructions of ancient figures. I'd love to see one done of all the above mentioned persons as well as Mary I, Elizabeth I, and Edward VI. Highly unlikely permission would ever be granted for such a task but it's fun to speculate!

    I hope in his honor Richard is re-buried with the Catholic rites of his day - in the Latin language! Some articles mentioned that both an Anglican and Roman Catholic priest kept vigil by his remains these past few days. Perhaps they could do an ecumenical memorial service? I hope they place a replica coronet (again from his day) on his coffin too.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  11. AragornElessar

    AragornElessar Well-Known Member

    Daily Planet on Discovery Canada also led w/the Announcement, but went farther in depth w/the actual science behind how this all worked, and what needed to be done, in order to beyond a doubt prove it was Richard III. Really fascinating.

    Funny you should mention that, but I'll get to that a bit further down the post.

    Hey, if that's what sparked your interest in to learning more about the actual history behind the novels, then AFAIC....Awesome!! To me, I don't care how you get to any interest/passion when it comes to any period of History or whatever you might be passionate about.

    It was my early facisnation in Mary, Queen of Scots that got me to give Embroidery a try about 30 years ago and all these years on, I'm grateful to Queen Mary and the pictures of her increadable pieces of needlework for inspiring me to give it a shot and ask my Mom if she'd teach me.

    You never know where that spark comes from. So long as it comes and you're interested in learning more, I'm always welcoming of someone who is on that kind of a quest. :)

    I haven't come across the second Documentary Chelle mentions up above, but I have seen the Starkey one and the first episode and a good portion of the second does go very in-depth into Henry's childhood, being raised among his sisters and Mother, while Arthur was off learning to be PoW and future King, how he was created DoY due to the entire Warbeck Pretender to the Throne who was saying he was the DoY/Prince of the Tower thing and since there could only be *one* DoY....

    Starkey also goes rather indepth into Henry's Installation Ceremony to the Order of the Bath/Knight of the Bath *and* how by doing rather painstaking analysis shows how it's apparently Katherine of York who taught Henry his first lessons, along w/his sisters, as there are portions of their handwriting that are too alike to be explained in any other manner.

    It really is excellent all around and I highly recommend it.

    Oh no!!! And you've been looking so forward to today and the hope it really was Richard III too. I'm sorry that happened Guinevere. Due to Dad having to have a blocked Cathedar finally removed tomorrow, (*Finally*!! The stupid thing never did work for him to have Dialysis the other way by using it, but how long has it been left in there? Since October!!! Grrrrr!!!!) and in turn having his Dialysis changed to 7am, which considering showers and everything...I was up at 4:30am because we were able to work it for a neighbour to get them that far, and went in for my Monthly Blood Work. Anyway....I took my iPod Touch into the bathroom w/me and kept checking both the CBC and The Royal Forums on and off while getting ready after the shower. Wasn't until just a few minutes before we left the Official Word hit the News sites and I was cheering in our little porch. :D

    On Daily Planet they were saying there were also evidence of far more strikes/gouges in various bones of both the ribs and vertebrae that could have only been made by a sword being thrust into a body w/a great deal of force behind it. That to me proves they basically butchered the poor man while he was either dying or dead not long after. Not much else to say about that other than....:(

    From Sasha's Spins...

    Well...W/Anne and Katherine, it could be easily done. Actually, maybe easier for Anne come to think of it. Between the Howards being the female line for Anne's DNA thanks to her Mother Elizabeth and the descendants of Mary Boleyn that are out there thanks to Mary's daughter Catherine Carey and her husband's huge Family....It could be done for Anne easily I'd think.

    BTW, one of Mary's distant Descendants? She just happens to be carrying the future King or Queen of the United Kingdom and Commonwealth at the moment. I can never remember exactly how, I know it's through one of Catherine's children. I do recall that.

    So there's one person available for a DNA swabbing. If this was ever to be done that is.

    Isn't it though? :)

    While I agree he should be re interred in the Catholic faith he was a Member of, I think it should be done in both Latin and English. Latin as a sign of respect to His Late Majesty and also English as well to keep it accessible to those of us of today.

    I would think not only his Coronet would be on his coffin, but his Royal Standard would also be covering it too. I think that's proper protocol both back then and today, isn't it?

    And on a different topic....If you haven't read Sarah Bradford's excellent biography The Reluctant King : The Life and Reign of George VI ever before, then find it. You won't be disappointed and I haven't been reading it so much as devouring it. :D It truly has lived up to the hype and then some.

    However, now w/what I've learned in this book and combine that w/the Files that have been Declassified the last 20 years or so and...How the Hell did Edward VIII/Duke of Windsor *not* get slapped w/Treason charges for his actions during the early years of WWII? And I'm not just talking about he and Wallis being "sympathetic" to the Nazi cause either. There is correspondence in these files that show Edward/DoW was active in putting forth the idea that when Britain fell...

    When, not if, but when.

    ...considering he was the former King and knew who could be trusted and who couldn't, to be allowed to be set up as "The President of the British Republic" in the future.

    Now....maybe I've watched one too many episodes of The Tudors or have read one too many books on Royal History of the Medieval era, but...That to me screams at the very least Sedition Against the British Govt and at the very most Treason.

    Yeah, I know they'r basically the same, but I'm also running on steam here...Anyway, I've just finished the chapters on Their Majesties' Historic State Visit to Canada and the US and they come back home to the World on the brink of World War once again. I am not looking forward to the part when Prince George, the Duke of Kent was killed in that plane crash in Scotland at all, as Bradford has done such a great job of pulling you into the World of George VI and his beloved Elizabeth, you feel like you're there w/them seeing it all first hand.

    Anyway....Get this book if you haven't read it!!! A must have for any Royal Library.
  12. cygnus

    cygnus Well-Known Member

    I recently read this book http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/nov/25/winter-king-thomas-penn-review , which is the first real bio I've come across about Henry VII and his times. Like you I've read scores of book about Henry Vlll and Elizabeth, but this is the first more recent book about his father that I've come across. I can recommend it, although it's not a "fluffy" read.

    Missed the post above that also recommended this book- I guess I'll second it!

    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  13. topaz

    topaz Well-Known Member

    I just read about the discovery of Richard III's skeleton. Very interesting and I have to say, Richard was not bad looking.
  14. JJH

    JJH Well-Known Member

    With the amount of scoliosis shown in Richard's skeleton, wouldn't he have been in significant pain? Would it impact his ability to sit on a horse, fight in armor etc?
  15. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    I found the links:

    Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant

    I'm looking forward to watching this, as I'd not seen it in the US.

    ETA: I also grew up reading the historical novels by Dorothy Dunnett.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  16. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

    I'll have a look around. After our discussion here yesterday, I went to my Tudor library (yeah, I have a lot :)) and found Sisters to the King, which I never read. The early part of the book has quite a bit - so far mostly pageants and descriptions from letters written by foreign visitors (which is often the case) but it has a light tone and I'm enjoying it so far.

    Interestingly, she mentions working closely with Starkey and not wanting to overlap his research, so perhaps he was working on that documentary?

    THANK YOU. Looks like that one came out a couple of years after my Tudor obsession, so I missed it. It is in my amazon cart now :)

    The review mentions another book about Perkin Warbeck by Ann Wroe, which seems to go by several titles. It's an excellent, well researched, well written book that covers the period very well, and in particular offers a broader view of what was happening throughout the rest of Europe. I have it somewhere - we moved a few months ago and I confess there are still a dozen boxes of books in the basement :shuffle:.

    The issue of course is that one can confirm a yes with DNA, but not necessarily a no. History is riddled with illegitimate children and questionable parenthood, so for example had there not been a match with Richard III, it wouldn't have meant it wasn't him - instead it could have meant that there was a break in the family tree somewhere.

    The Queen has avoided DNA tests on members of the Royal Family for this very reason it is believed - because a few mismatches and many of the royal houses of Europe could come crumbling down. I remember seeing a chart someone had done about hemophilia among royals in Europe (ETA just googled - there are several out there if you want to check this further), which apparently follows a pretty specific pattern that does not match up with the family trees, suggesting that someone in history was lying :lol: I think one of the larger implications was the parentage of Queen Victoria or one of her parents, and given that her living descendants hold titles all over Europe today, you can imagine the mess if the hereditary lines are disputed!

    Indeed I just read about that in Sisters of the King last night, and as I said she says she studied with Starkey so no surprise they are on the same page as that point. She says the pageants for Henry becoming Duke of York (at age 3!) were bigger than when Arthur was installed as Prince of Wales, so that tells us there was another agenda in play.

    Indeed, the Duchess of Cambridge is descendent of Catherine Carey, one of Mary Boleyn's children. Even thought the risk to the monarchy is much smaller, I somehow don't think anyone wants the future Queen of England's DNA flying around though.

    And of course the fun part is that some believe that Catherine is actually Henry's child, so how great would that be? Imagine if Kate has a claim to the Tudor throne?? I know I know, but it's a fun thought. And anyway, from what I've read, the general consensus is that Mary's son Henry is very likely Henry's, but Catherine is more likely the child of William Carey.

    I know :eek: I found that shocking too! I thought surely the skeleton is crumpled a bit or something, because how on earth could a person walk with that spine, let alone go into battle??

    I'm sure there will be further medical analysis now that it's been confirmed it's him, and I will be watching for it.
  17. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    I wouldn't call Katherine Howard murdered. Unlike Anne Boylen, she really DID commit adultery, that really WAS high treason...unless she was a total moron, she should have known what would happen. Anne Boylen almost certainly wasn't guilty of anything she was charged with, Katherine Howard almost certainly was. And I wasn't aware the burial sites for them were particular secrets, they're on the Tower grounds, are they not? As are St John Fisher and St. Thomas More, at least in part (though I think they were buried more secretly to avoid relic hunters--More at least wasn't officially canonized for a while but that didn't used to be a big deal for the faithful.)

    As for a funeral it would only be appropriate for King Richard to have a Catholic mass (they could not, as far as I understand, use the exact form, but the Latin mass is still valid and performed and one would think they'd use that and it's generally encouraged. The Liturgy of the Word is in English or whatever the local native language is, most of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which is more important, is in Latin. It really doesn't matter if non-Catholics can't understand it as they can't legitimately participate in the Eucharist anyway, Catholics either should understand, or they can tell what's going on by context. But they can't use the one contemporary to Richard, it's no longer the correct form.)
  18. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Aging in a great place

    A great read by Josephine Tey. One of my "keepers" when we downsized.
  19. Corianna

    Corianna Active Member

    The official reports seem to say that one shoulder would have been higher than the other, and that's all. The photo seems to be misleading.
  20. AragornElessar

    AragornElessar Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  21. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

  22. AragornElessar

    AragornElessar Well-Known Member

    Some more Richard III article links...

    Telegraph ~ Richard III to be re-interred in major ceremony at Leicester Cathedral

    There's a really great video w/members of the Team talking about the discovery w/that too. Also two pictures of the full skeleton and w/the curvature of the spine...Amazing he was able to fight or ride a horse or just plain walk!!

    And I love this....


    Daily Mail ~500 years on, the grisly secrets of Richard III's lost grave are revealed: King discovered under car park was stripped, tied up and suffered 'humiliation wounds' after his death

    This one also has a picture of the entire skeleton, but this one, it shows by arrows and lines where each blow happened and how it likely happened, as well as also pointing out certain things that need changed in the history books. Such as how Richard III had a withered arm, but the arm bones of the skeleton completely tosses that out the window. Chilling to look over, but at least it does appear the blow from the halberd was the killing blow. He either would have knocked out or killed outright from that, so at least when the winning forces of Henry Tudor/Henry VII did the rest of what they did, Richard was already gone.

    Poor comfort, but...I know I'm not stating what I'm meaning here well, but I hope it's coming across.

    Also from the Daily Mail...

    To bury Richard III in Westminster Abbey would finally give a proper national resting place to our most unfairly maligned monarch of all

    It's since been announced Richard will be staying at Leicester Cathedral, only in a proper manner this time, and also a Memorial Service held, but this also brings up pretty fair points as to why there should be a State Funeral and internment at the Abbey. At least IMO.

    And before I forget...That skull/facial reconstruction is amazing!!! Eerie just how much it looks like the portraits, as in that time, portraits weren't always a true likeness of the real person, so... Really amazing!!
  23. AragornElessar

    AragornElessar Well-Known Member

  24. skatefan

    skatefan home in England

    Disappointed to hear that Richard of York will not be reburied in York Minster.

    Even the mnemonic to remember the order of colours in a rainbow is after him - Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain (red orange yellow green blue indigo violet) :shuffle:
  25. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Agree he should be buried in York, and my second choice would be Westminster. It's not like he was under Leicster's carpark because he liked the area.

    However, lol, I think that mnemonic is very much a UK thing...never heard it before!
  26. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    grrr board software and double posting....
  27. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

    Super excited! Nice UPS man has just delivered The Winter King, can't wait to start it tonight! Will be sure to report back in once I'm into it for those who might be interesting in reading as well.

    Thanks again to cygnus and danceronice for alerting me to it.
  28. AragornElessar

    AragornElessar Well-Known Member

  29. skatefan

    skatefan home in England

    :lol: sorry, yes it is :)

    re the carpark, I'm not sure whether you have seen the documentary following the search for Richard, but his remains were found under a parking bay marked with a large 'R' (as in reserved) but spooky, eh?
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