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Rivals from same country where national judges preference differs from international

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Seerek, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Any examples where national judges had a different order of preference compared to international judges for rivals from the same country?
  2. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    My first thought on seeing this question was Greg Louganis and Bruce Kimball, but that's the wrong sport.

    This is a hard one because any country's judges tend to give supporting marks to any skater of theirs seen as a new hope, but I think US judges preferred Kwan to Lipinski. Not that Kwan didn't get strong marks from other country's judges, but I was always surprised at the generous marks Tara got internationally.

    Sticking with US ladies, it seemed sometimes like US judges were more generous to Flatt than international judges, while Nagasu seemed preferred by other countries' judges.

    One other example might be Yagudin and Plushenko. With all his international accomplishments, Yagudin was never Russian national champion. (Seems impossible, but it's true.)
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I always felt Tonya Harding was far more likely, to varying degrees of course, to beat both Yamaguchi and Kerrigan outside Nationals than at Nationals. The 89 Nationals is a great example. Harding skated brilliantly, yet then tiny jumping and no style Yamaguchi came from way behind after figures to somehow beat her anyway. At Worlds the judges placed Kristi 6th, and Harding probably would have won the silver behind Ito with her Nationals performances (including figures). She would have walloped that years version of Kristi in front of an international panel, that is for sure.
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Cohen vs Kwan is possibly one to a minor degree. Cohen never beat Kwan at Nationals but beat her at both the 2004 and 2005 Worlds.

    Cohen vs Hughes is another but to a larger degree. Cohen beat Hughes twice at Nationals, but I dont believe ever beat Hughes at an international event apart from the 2003 Worlds where both didnt medal.

    Butyrskaya complains the Russian federation favored Slutskaya, yet she actually had more success against Slutskaya at Russian Nationals than anywhere else. Slutskaya did not win her first Russian title until 2000, and Maria had won the 5 previous.
  5. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    Aren't most of the judges at Nationals also qualified to judge at international events? I'm not sure we're talking about two completely separate sets of judges.
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I had forgotten one major one. Callegeri & Camerlengo were in the top 6 at every Worlds and Olympics from 91-93 but never won the Italian Nationals except their final season in 1993. The Italian team of Anna Croci & Luca Mantovani who never finished higher than 13th in a World or Olympic event beat them for the Italian title in 1990, 1991, and 1992.
  7. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Nikodinov and Hughes. The USFSA kept pushing Sarah since 1999 nationals, and I guess it ultimately worked out for them.
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Well Nikodinov never beat Hughes at an international event I know of. Even in 1999 when a subpar Nikodinov finished above 13 year old Hughes (who skated very well) at Nationals, Hughes placed much higher at Worlds that same year.
  9. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    This was one aI thought of as a good example. I think the international judges preferered Harding (up until 91), and I think if she had landed one more jump at the 91 worlds she would have won that title over Yamaguchi.
  10. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Nikodinov finished above Hughes at the 99 fall proam. It was pretty clear that the judging panel at 01 worlds was more partial to Nikodinov. I think if 2002 nationals was skated under an international panel, Nikodinov would have beaten Hughes in the short program. It was so wrong that she didn't.
  11. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

    In 2010-11, Canadian judges preferred Crone & Poirier, while international judges favoured Weaver & Poje.
  12. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    No, only a limited number of judges in the U.S. are eligible to judge internationally (and an even smaller number ISU Championships), a very small subset of the National judges. In Singles & Pairs, there are 19 total ISU Championship judges and an additional 10 judges who can judge international competitions, but not ISU Championships. I think there are close to 200 National Singles & Pairs judges (I counted several years ago but they aren't listed all in one place and I don't feel like counting up the ones in the USFSA directory now).
  13. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

    Yagudin and Plushenko come to mind. Whereas Yagudin beat Plushenko very often on the international stage he never managed to beat him for Russian National title.
  14. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Perhaps Flatt vs Nagasu. USFS thought Flatt was the saviour and marked her that way at Nationals 2010 but at most international competitions where she competed against Nagasu (2010 Olympics, Worlds, 2011 4CCs) Nagasu handily won PCS and the gap got widened even further after Vancouver.

    In any event it's evident that the judges never warmed up to Flatt - they never let her win a GP or medal at any senior internationals no matter how much of a rock she was.
  15. Mafke

    Mafke Well-Known Member

    I totally agree. I remember at the time thinking that Harding had outskated (big jumps, great edges and speed) Yamaguchi at that nationals. But the USFSA was totally pushing Yamaguchi (main reason I was always a little cold to her). She totally should have been sent to worlds instead of Yamaguchi.

    There's also the old case of Janet Lynn and Julie Lynn Holmes, Holmes lost to Lynn at Nationals 69-71 while Holmes outranked Lynn at worlds. That was probably due to Magnussen (probably) placing between them in figures putting Lynn further behind.
  16. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    But Kwan didn't skate at Worlds the way she did at Nationals. And Michelle beat Sasha in the LP at 2004 Worlds, although she made a mistake and was not a Gold contender after QR and SP.

    In France, Eric Millot was favored against Philippe Candeloro at the beginning from 1989 to 1993.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Michelle at the 2005 Nationals was nothing extraordinary, especialy in the LP. Not even much different from Worlds. Sasha made mistakes there too but it was obvious by the scoring a clean Kwan would have beaten a clean Cohen there, but it was also obvious by the scoring at Worlds the same year the reverse was definitely true (albeit under a different system).

    Millot placed higher in international competitions than Philippe until fall 1992.
  18. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Yes,Yagudin often beat Plushenko when Plush was 15, 16 y.o kid. But when Plu grew up, he was 17, he beat Yag in internatinal competitions, too. He won in ECH 2000, but lost in WCH, and in 2001 Plu beat Yag everywhere. 2002 was Yagudin's year again. And Plush beat Yagudin at Ru Nat Champs? Yes, because that kid had such a great and difficult programs like Yagudin's and he was flawless, or he made less mistakes.
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I do think the scoring systems made a huge difference. I also suspect outside factors came into play for both Nationals and Worlds to explain the scoring. I mean Kwan was going for a record at Nationals.
  20. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

    Great examples, and nice memories, thanks everyone! :)

    But DUH, how about the most obvious one ~ Lipinski vs. Kwan, especially at the 1998 Olympics.

    That said, the first one that came to mind when I saw the title of this thread was my fav, Rachael Flatt, whom imho was robbed of at least two places at the 2010 Olympics, where she skated her best and she skated her heart out per usual. :cool: Of course she was never the same after that once she got tendonitis and stress fracture in her foot, but what she managed to accomplish throughout her entire career thus far while dealing with bulging discs in her back is remarkable! :hat1:

    To see her skate live is something else; she made me tear up both times I saw her at Skate America in 2010 & 2012. She really did outskate everyone in 2010; the SO she got was well-deserved, but alas I honestly think the real reason why the international judges do not look her is because she didn't have the body of a ballerina (the Russian men's 1994 Olympic Champion even called her fat) and that she was consistent, even though her jumps were not as big as her European counterparts, though fully rotated. Lol I think that irritated them. :D And of course her bulging discs in her back prevented her from doing those gumby spins, but what she had she worked well with. And let us not forget she had that once-in-a-lifetime ability only the truly greats have - mental toughness. Jmho. :)
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I don't think Kwan and Lipinski is really that great of an example.

    In 1996-1997, Kwan beat Tara Lipinski in Trophee Lalique. Then Kwan had her Nationals mishap where Lipinski beat her domestically. Then at the CSF, Lipinski beat Kwan again taking advantage of Kwan's sub-par skate. At Worlds, Lipinski skated a great SP and won that portion while Kwan had a mandatory deduction on her Lutz combo. In the LP, the international judges marked Kwan first by a 6-3 split.

    In 1997-1998, Lipinski lost to Kwan unanimously in the SP and LP at Skate America (although it must be said that Lipinski fell in the LP). International judges preferred Kwan that time. Then the International judges liked Lipinski again in the GPF. At Nationals, Lipinski fell in the SP, while Kwan had an out-of-this world SP and LP to beat Tara. At the Olympics, Kwan won the SP 8-1 while Lipinski won the LP 6-3.

    I don't think there was really any difference in the way domestic judges and international judges scored Kwan and Lipinski. Now, if you're saying who got the most positive press leading to the Olympics, that's different. However, both skaters were heavily promoted when they were still developing as juniors by the USFSA.
  22. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    No matter how mentally tough Rachael was the international judges preferred Mirai especially if they both skated well. Rachael just was to slow and lacking skating skills and was never going to make a World podium while the judges were ready to put Mirai on the podium at Worlds in 2010 if she hadn't bombed her LP.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  23. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

    from memory, in 1997 Moniotte/Lavanchy came back from injury, were defeated nationally by Anissina/Peizerat, the rivalry was very strong during Grand Prix, but Moniotte/Lavanchy finally passed ahead of Anissina/Peizeart at Euros.
  24. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

    That might have been due to the Free Dance rather than the preference of the skaters. A/P's oriental FD wasn't exactly a judges favorite... :shuffle: And I remember in the back of my head to have heard/read that Moniotte/Lavanchy were "dumped" by the federation so A/P could have the support.
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    That was the first example I thought of, as soon as I read the title of this thread.
  26. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

    Lol the Russians know whom is the best! :cool: Evgeni always managed to skate his best at home, in his country, at Nationals (ala Michelle Kwan). In fact he skated "Nijinsky" the best he's ever had at Russian Nationals:


    ps: Evgeni is only 1 of 10 men throughout figure skating history to win Nationals 10 times. He shares this honor with the greats: Carlo Fassi (Italy), Nobuo Sato (Japan), Bo Mathander (Sweden), Hans Lindh (Sweden), Alain Giletti (France), Laszlo Vajda (Hungary), Marcus Nikkanen (Finland), Gregor Urbas (Slovenia), Martin Stixrud (Norway). And in December of 2012, at the age of 30, he became the 10th man to do so. :hat1:
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I dont think it is either. Tara won events over Michelle due to her consistency. The judges never really preferred her. It was absolutely nothing like the Michelle and Irina rivalry where it seemed Irina would always win if they skated similar programs for awhile. Tara had to skate lights out with much harder technical content and Michelle to mess up some things seemingly for her to have any chance. That was true both in and out of the U.S.

    The one exception to this is the Olympics. However when comparing Olympics to U.S Nationals that year there was a HUGE difference to how both Tara and Michelle skated in their LPs from one event to another, despite that both were basically "clean".
  28. dawnie

    dawnie Well-Known Member

    Plus, didn't Tarasova tell Frank he should have politicked more in Nagano since the Russian (and Euro judges in general) didn't care who won between Kwan and Lipinski? Who knows what would have happened if Frank played the game like Callaghan and gave a few judges a bottle of vodka.

    As for Harding vs Yamaguchi, I find it interesting some think Harding was viewed favorably internationally since international judges didn't seem to care for Elaine Zayak who had a similar style. I don't agree Harding would have won for sure had she hit her jumps at 91 Worlds. It would have been close but Yamaguchi had the better program and would have deserved to win.
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I wouldnt say international judges didnt care for Zayak. At the 81 Worlds she fell on her death drop in the short and was still placed above many clean performances including Kira Ivanova and Kristofics Binder. It was her gift of being placed higher than she should have in the short that allowed her to narrowly pass Binder for silver after a well deserved 2nd place in the long program. At the 82 Worlds she went from 7th to 1st. In 84 she was yesterdays news to international judges, but that had more to do with that the USFSA was not backing her anymore at that point.

    Comparing Harding to Zayak, well Hardings jumps were more explosive and huge. Zayak had great rotational abilities but her jumps were not as big or explosive as people like Witt, Biellmann, young Chin, Ivanova, and didnt really stand out beyond the sheer numbers and the difficult combinations for the time. Hardings triple axel was more key to setting her apart than anything Zayak had, especialy once the Zayak rule was put into place. Zayak had a triple loop, but Witt and Chin both had a triple flip (even if rarely delivered cleanly). Harding also had much stronger basic skating and was alot faster than Elaine was. Ultimately though Zayak achieved a World gold, silver, and bronze, and Harding only a World silver, so I wouldnt say international judges even liked Harding more than Zayak, even though they liked her more than National judges typically did. Although some of that (the lack of medals) is Tonyas own fault, and some of that the USFSAs fault for holding Harding back from 86-89. Atleast young Elaine was heavily pushed and backed by the USFSA in her early years, even being sent to the 1980 Worlds or one of the Olympic reps who had beaten Zayak at Nationals, something that was never true of Tonya.

    I do agree with LNT75 about the 91 Worlds. First off Kristi singled her triple salchow, a glaring miscue, so a clean Tonya with a clean triple axel would have had to win. Any other result would have created a huge scandal in that case, regardless of Kristi's better program/package. At Nationals Kristi fell on her triple salchow, and Tonya clean with the triple axel won easily, and it has already been noted international judges approve of Tonya vs Kristi more than National judges. Even had the double salchow been her only mistake and she done the triple toe-triple toe as planned (or even a triple toe-double toe) she would have won though. She had similar technical marks to Kristi and still high artistic scores even with the glaring misses, and the planned triple toe combination which was turned into one big ugly single toe was the key mistake which made the difference. The double salchow would have been meaningless since Kristi missed hers worse than that.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    What was the skater order in the LP at 1991 Worlds?