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Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Dec 10, 2012.

Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

Poll closed Jan 14, 2013.
  1. Yes

    103 vote(s)
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
  3. Undecided. See me after Nationals.

    21 vote(s)
  1. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    I don't think he needs a technical coach. He has skated the way he has been skating the last two years. It's just that others have overtaken him to some extent, but they are not so far ahead that he needs to panic. He had just one major mistake (fall) in his LP; the other one on the 3A was less serious. About him tagging on a jump after his second quad- it's just something he needed to learn. I am sure he will not make that mistake again.
    euterpe and (deleted member) like this.
  3. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    I just feel like Patrick lacks the structure, coaching-wise, he seemed to have in the past. Krall is an excellent coach, and I'm sorry she's no longer Patrick's.
  4. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

    Absolutely not. So many people here put way too much emphasis on needing a coach. It's not like he has horrible technique now or anything.
  5. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

    I recognize he often makes some mistakes in one program. On the other hand, he always fixed his technique by Worlds. I'm sure he will be in the best shape in London.
  6. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    I don't know.. not a skater. But as a fan, I will feel more comfortable and assured if he gets at least a p/t technical coach, not necessarily primary coach. Does he has one now?

    For more fun, here's 14yo Patrick at 2005 Jr Nationals FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzDOZx9WcV0
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  7. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Patrick is and will be just fine.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    On the bright side, he landed both 3axels at GPF and they were both wonderful!
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    I think Patrick Chan is "entitled" to make his own decisions. ;) Besides, it's not as if Patrick didn't make technical mistakes in his programs when Christy Krall was his coach. And, in any case, there is someone with technical expertise on his team right now.

    But, perhaps one of the poll options might be: Should Chan choose a more experienced coach for the Olympic season while keeping Kathy Johnson as his dance/ artistic coach and mentor?

    Another possible question:

    Why do the judges show more love to Hanyu than to Chan this season? ;)
  10. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

    I believe that Patricks issue is between his ears.
  11. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    I agree. Kristy is a disciplinarian and I don't think that was working for him. He said he wanted to "take more control" of his training. Read that as "I want to train and skate how and when I want".

    I'm not a fan of this. I'm a believer in structure. Patrick doesn't need to be taught how to skate or jump but he, like anyone, would need regular tweaking. Just like in golf, for example, athletes develop bad habits in their technique regularly and this must be kept in line. Who's doing that for him now?

    I think he needs technical maintenance and a disciplined approach to training. Yes, there's a "between the ears" factor probably because he knows he's being watched closely by fans and the federation; he's feeling pressure to show his new approach is working. But you can bet if he finishes 3rd or lower in London Skate Canada will be all over him to go back to more traditional coaching methods.
    kylet3 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Of course, it is because they want Patrick to add a Beillmann and this is how they give him the message.
    kwanfan1818 and (deleted member) like this.
  13. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    That will NEVER happen, if only because the men below Chan are so very, very far below him!
  14. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    :lol: Or maybe Patrick needs his own version of a lucky Pooh bear!

    Anyways, I doubt Patrick is going back to Krall, nor will he dump Kathy Johnson. Brian Orser is taken ... or should I say already has his hands full with Fernandez and Hanyu. Patrick's not going to go to Frank Carroll. Really, at this stage of Patrick's career, who else is there? ... Toller Cranston has been out of the scene for so many years, he's not the kind of coach Patrick would need I don't think. And once again, Patrick's not going to dump Kathy Johnson. How exactly does he describe her role in his training process? Who was Buttle's former coach? Are there good Canadian technical coaches Patrick might consider? I think he already is getting technical advice from someone.

    Also, reminder: Patrick began to have technical miscues when he was still working with Christy Krall. So, why does everyone think it's a technical problem that needs to be addressed? It could be an approach to training problem, as someone already mentioned.

    IMHO, it's more that incorporating the quad consistently (even if it has been mastered) is a difficult problem for all the top men. It's a lot more difficult than the sport is noticing or acknowledging. Patrick is not the only one with technical inconsistencies this season and past seasons (and the 3-axel has never been an easy or consistent jump for him). The main difference, IMO, is that the judges were kinder to Patrick when he made mistakes the past two seasons, and I think he got very used to that benevolence, which frankly was upended in Nice.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  16. naan

    naan New Member

    As a fan, it would be great if Patrick has a technical coach, but I believe Patrick knows himself more than we know, and he will make a wise decision as he did before :)
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    Patrick is an adult. I think only he knows what works for him- a structured approach or a more flexible approach. I was surprised when he decided to leave Krall, but apparently he was not happy with her approach. I don't see anything wrong in him trying a different style of coaching. This is not the Olympic year, and there is enough time to make some adjustments. I don't believe those would include going back to Krall though.
  18. fscric

    fscric Active Member

    Sigh! He didn't leave Krall, Krall decided to leave because she's not happy with Patrick's intention to focus more on artistry.
  19. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Oh wow, I never knew he made so many technique changes since then!
  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    ^ I don't know what you are talking about. The program was a splat fest for sure but the basic skating was the same and he achieved somethings by 14 that some Olympic Champions could not replicate. I really liked his jump entrances, even if they ultimately resulted in a fall.
  21. googooeyes

    googooeyes Active Member

    Of course Patrick knows what he is doing and is an adult and can make all his own decisions etc. But a skater needs a knowledgable pair of eyes looking at them all the time to pick out the small changes in body position and balance that you CANNOT perceive yourself. Patrick's air positions are becoming inconsistant and that is a slippery slope.
    Re the GPF: this business of not knowing how to change his program and which jump to make into the combo etc. after he fell in the long program just shows that he wasn't prepared by his coach. What coach would EVER send a skater into competition (even a 10 year old!) without discussing a "plan B' for moving the combo jumps if a fall happens? For goodness sakes he is at the top of the skating world and they didn't discuss and practice this? Time to get a skating coach Patrick.
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Or, more specifically, he wished to downgrade Krall's role from head coach to instructor, with Kathy Johnson getting a promotion (recalling that he'd been working with her for at least a year). Krall decided at that point to terminate her working relationship with Chan.
  23. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    :confused:??? His jumps entrances now are completely different than what they are in the video. His arms are lower now on the take off; the edge on his lutz is now on an outside edge; his flip takeoff is striaght now; his toe-picking leg on the lutz is also lower.
  24. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    ^ I was thinking you were talking more about basics.

    ... my eyes still see correct edges for his jump entrances, but you are right about the air position, entrance turns/steps, and picking on his jumps, but he was a gangly 14 year old, so not much would be the same after 2 years.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  26. minx

    minx Active Member

    His right arm is quite different. Much more refined with less wasted effort. He's skating smarter, not harder.

    I would like to know if he's doing a lot of work with Dartfish still.
  27. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    I don't think the judges are preferring Hanyu over Chan this season, or they were giving Chan a free pass last year. Chan's win with mistakes was because others at the same competition weren't clean either (SP+LP). Looking at Chan's GPF marks, with mistakes Chan is still getting the highest PCS (~5 pts higher than Hanyu ~3pts higher than Takahashi). If Chan skates clean with two quads, he is still unbeatable.
  28. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    Krall did everything for Patrick. She provide a strong structural plan for that was working. Kathy Johnson first started as an off-ice dance instructor which i believe worked well for him. However Kathy Johnson slowly went from off-ice, to on-ice training. That on-ice training went from improving his artistic to attempting to help his jumps by talking about his soul and his chi. Obviously jumps have nothing to do with your soul and your chi and krall knew this. Krall then slowly became more of a secondary coach instead of primary coach which is ridiculous because Krall is clearly the real coach in this situation and johnson is just some stupid obnoxious lady that went to julliard. Krall told Patrick that she needs to be primary coach or she will quit, but patrick wanted johnson.

    I was coaching in Colorado Springs at the time and this is the story i heard

    Patrick needs Krall. Jumps do not work because your chi is aligned. Jumps are about technique and Krall provides that.
    euterpe and (deleted member) like this.
  29. t.mann

    t.mann Member

    The judges seem not to want that one skater dominates the field, though the skater(Chan, Voir) is a talent of all-time level.
    I don‘t think that Canada federation have that strong power in ISU as many people claim.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  30. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    I am sure there are better things to hug than a Pooh bear for a 21yo man. ;)