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Patrick Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Your story had no fracking effect on Patrick and his results. Here's some "facts" for ya
    1) Patrick always starts out slowly and usually has a rough outing in at least his first and quite often his second comps. Don't believe me, check out some of the topics from last season and you will see a bunch of moaners and groaners saying he shouldn't have won with three/four/more falls.
    2) Patrick has not one but TWO new programs and that's new for him so I would expect him to be OK in early comps and get better as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with them
    3) he has new people on his team and again, more adjustments. These things take TIME
    4) he has decided to put more emphasis on the emoting of his programs and when you are focusing on something that is newer to you, sometimes you focus so much on that area that other areas TEMPORARILY suffer. Notice I said TEMPORARILY.

    Patrick will be fine. I have total faith in him that he will, like a fine wine, just get better and better. He knows that the other skaters are upping their content and he's not willing to rest upon his laurels. He hears/read/knows he has areas in which there is room for improvement and he works on them. Back in 2010 he got slammed for not have a quad -- now he usually tries 3 (1 in the short, 2 in the long) with one of those in combination. His triple axel looked fine once again. Since he got the quads, he got slammed for not be "artistic" or "feeling his music" -- so now he's working on that aspect of his skating. If I didn't know any better, I might think you have it out for him. Fans like you who first try to stir up trouble with your earlier posts and are now trying to take credit for his "turn around" make me glad we have this thing called "the ignore feature" -- a list to which I think you might need to be added.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  2. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    You must spread rep before giving it to Professor Deb again :)...............ITA with you. My "ignore" list is growing!!!!
  3. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Trevor - there is no need to shout.

    You slammed him by bringing up personal issues on a public board. That is just not done by anyone who purports to be a friend of the family.

    All the best in your efforts to popularize the sport in China etc.
  4. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Start by not feeding the troll? I think that would be good for everyone. Except maybe the troll. ;)
  5. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    Which is exactly why I didn't get started ;)

    Great minds think alike and all that jazz :D
  6. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    I have a curious question, and it's not a hate question, it was just something I was thinking about.

    When was the last time Patrick skated a full clean international competition (as at CoR)? Worlds 2011?

    The whole men's field seems very splatty this year.

    (In the meantime, maybe we should all use the report button on trevor instead of ignore?)
  7. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    That's a good question and perhaps you'd like to clarify what you mean by fully clean? The judges may have given a skate a "clean bill of health" but there will be some who don't call it such because he got negative GOE or he downgraded a one or more jumps -- much like he did in the free at CoR. There was at least one poster here who was going on about why did Patrick have such a large margin of victory cause he made mistakes in his free. Well I went and looked at his protocols and there was nothing there that showed he was "dinged" for any mistakes. That being said, his jump content wasn't what he planned, but what he did was clean and I said such to that poster.

    Oh, and I like your idea about using the report button. It's not something that I've ever used but perhaps in this case ...
  8. unicorn

    unicorn Active Member

    Who cares if he's clean or not. He proved he could be damn good once again with still lots of room to be even better. It's not necessarily a good thing if someone peaks too early. Like him or not, he will be great. I hope he will continue to compete after 2014. I am not his crazy fan, but I like him, like his determination.
  9. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    Oh, I meant "clean" by "staying on his feet" - as in, an international competition where he didn't fall. By "full" I meant both programs. My brain says 2011 Worlds but I'm not quite sure. I think everyone made pretty major mistakes at CoR.
  10. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    I think Chan stayed on his feet in both programs at COR. Are you asking about the comps between COR and 2011 worlds? Certainly there was one, and I think probably 2 nationals comps, maybe some others comps later in the season. Can't remember.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  11. PeterG

    PeterG Well-Known Member

    I LOEV YOU, ESTA!!! :encore:
  12. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    What about skaters that don't have a full season? I don't care for it, but I don't think there should be a rule disallowing it (after all, how many skaters do basically the same program but to different music?)
  13. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    I disagree about two seasons. Three seasons or more, absolutely, yikes. But sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. What about someone like Josh Farris, who switched LPs halfway through last season, and thus kept the new one for this season? I think it also depends on the skater - Plushenko kept "The Godfather" for two seasons because he wasn't happy with how he had performed it the first season.

    That was why it struck me to ask, because I couldn't remember for sure the last time before COR that Chan had stayed on his feet in both programs. I'm reasonably sure he stayed up at 2011 Worlds, but I couldn't remember if he had since then.
  14. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    I think it's too early to tell. Sure, he mentioned that he's thinking he may keep both programs. But it really depends on how he will skate through out the season. If he skates 2 perfect record breaking programs during World, I don't see him keeping both of them. It's tough to top 2 perfect skates. However, if he doesn't skate up to the programs' potential, then I can see he will decide to keep them as there are more room to improve. Just like POTO.

    Orser is correct. Chan IS so much better than everyone else. I am not an expert. But if the judges, and the experts like Wilson and Orser said so, I believe them. The judges don't over-score a skater over and over and over again and again. It's very convenience to say that he's over-scored, he's the judges' pet etc. No, he got high marks because of superior skating skills, transitions, jumps, connections, speed, commanding the ice, difficult choreography, deep edges etc. And he's NOT the only one making a lot of mistakes. Many skaters also do. He won with mistakes NOT because the judges awarded to him, it's because the other skaters also didn't skate well. Look at this year's SC, he lost to Fernandez because Fernandez skated better, period! He won last year's SC with 2 mistakes because Fernandez and Dai also made several mistakes. But people just like to see that he won with mistakes without willing to acknowledge that other skaters didn't skate well. Dai or Hanyu could have won this season's GP if their opponents didn't skate well. If Dai or Hanyu had won, would people say they won with mistakes? No, it seems like it only applies to Chan :rolleyes: Dai lost World because he made several mistakes and water-down his LP.
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  15. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Of course, the rule should change just because it's Chan right? Just like so many arguments from the past about number of falls or other CoP judging that ends up in fave of Chan.

    I can already see that if Chan decides to keep the programs for next season and keeps winning, some haters will start whine and moan and complain about "old programs should not be allowed or should have auto deductions" blah blah blah. Afterall, if Chan has mastered the artistry, what else can they whine?
  16. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    While there is some truth in what you say, the judges do sometimes over-score a skater time and time again - or at least, do so in the eyes of some people. Think of all the Russian teams that consistently dominated ice dance for years, with the next top team following behind the current one. Dance results were pretty much a foregone conclusion in those days. All of those teams' placements were defended by some people, but others really found the consistency of the results really questionable.

    There are lots of examples of skaters that people consistently perceive as either over-marked or under-marked. For over-marked, I immediately think of Kim at 2010 Worlds. For under-marked I'm reminded of all the PCS wuzrobbed cries about Suzuki and Kozuka.

    I do think Chan is the best among the men generally. But he is not the best natural jumper. And while I think most of his wins have been justified, I also think he has the judges' favour. Favour isn't necessarily misplaced and can be seen as no more than a fair acknowledgment. But it does benefit some skaters while others really have to fight for recognition among the judges.

    And he lost to Fernadez because he lost so many points on the jumps. There was just no way for the judges to gift him the win.

    [/QUOTE] Dai or Hanyu could have won this season's GP if their opponents didn't skate well. If Dai or Hanyu had won, would people say they won with mistakes? No, it seems like it only applies to Chan :rolleyes: Dai lost World because he made several mistakes and water-down his LP.[/QUOTE]

    Dai tends to be more popular than Patrick generally, although some Patrick doubters seem to be liking him more this season.

    It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hanyu beat Chan at some point this season. He, too, has the judges favour IMO.
  17. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Well yes, having great basics and quality elements does leave a great impression with the judges and that's a huge advantage in judged sports. For Chan and Hanyu anyway, I think their favour from the judges are much more earned on merit than politiked (think Lindemann's bronze at Worlds held in Germany and Gachinski's bronze at Worlds held in Russia).

    Since COP was introduced, I think SS (and on a more intangible note, confidence) has become the most important characteristic judges look for in a skater. You have Ando and Joubert consistently scoring high despite nil CH and TR, and then there's Kim's decisive advantage over Asada in the 2010 season.

    Obviously, reputation and politics still play a big part, and it still matters whether you are the most accomplished skater from your country (think Suzuki and Kozuka). But the high scores for Chan and Hanyu are a welcomed change and an indication that judges are open to rewarding on merits too.
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    I'm sure the German Fed would be pleased to be aware of its politiking superpowers.

    Lindemann was killing it in practice in Dortmund, in the qualis, and in the SP, and while his 4T combination in the FS was flawed, so was Lambiel's. Lindemann's overall performance under pressure was one of the finest I've seen live, and he was flying across the ice. I couldn't believe it was the same skater I had seen a few months earlier in Malmo.
  19. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    You still don't understand that the confidential info you've posted on website didn't do anything but disservice to Patrick Chan. It was the invasion to his private life. If you care so much about him and his talent, write to his dad or do whatever you can to make them understand your concerns but for God's sake don't ever throw your temper tantrum in public and betray his people's trust to you!
  20. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    Dick made this statement long before chan appeared on the scene. So there were negative feelings about it pre Chan . My own view has nothing to do with Chan. I just brought it up because someone mentioned Chan might reuse his program next year. As much as I love MIchelle Kwan, I was disappointed she decided to reuse her short (as brilliant as it was) from her first Olympics in her next Olympics.
  21. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Doesn't Joubert re-use his programs........a lot.?.......
  22. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

    Petrenko was on the third year of his LP when he won Olympic Gold...
  23. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Yes, it does seem the Joubert likes to "reboot" his Matrix music/programs :D
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    He has repeated some programs, though never two in the same season that I'm aware of. Also, Joubert does sometimes have two new programs - more often, I think, than Chan. Brezina tends to recycle programs too, I think he recently said he can't afford to have two new programs choreographed each season. But while Chan has had a lot of expenses, I doubt that's the reason he's chosen to repeat programs.

    All that said, I don't mind skaters repeating programs, if said programs are good - especially if there are extenuating circumstances, such as an injury wiping out part of someone's season. I do think repeating both programs is going too far, though.
  25. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Those were 6.0 days and corruptions and all.

    I'm sure judges have their faves. Chan's not the only one. But he's the only one some people keep accusing when there's really baseless.

    Or because Fernandez had a better skate. If Chan had made another jump, and Fernandez had fallen another jump, the result could have been different.

    There are many guys can beat Chan when they have a great skate and Chan has a bad skate. But if all have a bad skate, Chan has the advantage because of his difficult programs and other factors.
  26. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Gachinski won because Ando made a stupid mistake.

    I do believe the judges value SS more than other elements, and it's rightfully so! Many like to say "sure, Chan has great SS, I will give him that, but that's only one of 5 PCS etc" True to that it's one of five PCS. However, without great SS, you can't really have great TR and CH, and to the extend, PE. And SS contributes to speed, edges, intricacy of the blade, the flow etc. It's not easy to have them all. One may have the speed, but not the edge. SS affects how the whole program will be skated. So it's not just one of the 5 PCS.

    I'm not a skater myself, so I have no idea which move is difficult or easy. I just listen to Kwong, Wilson and Browning talking about Chan's skate which is great. Browning points out Chan's movement after the 3Lutz, something that I'll never have spotted since it was just a second or so.


    It's a Chan lovefest among those 3, so just skip to 3:50-5:00 for Browning's take on Chan's skate, and 6:00-7:00 on Wilson's take. It also touches on why Chan has so much difficulty on the 3Axel. To me that's Chan's weakness, not his artistry which many people like to think so.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  27. skatingguy

    skatingguy Well-Known Member

    You meant Oda right - too many combinations.
  28. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    It looks like hurricane season is off to an early start this year.

  29. tkaug

    tkaug Member

    Chan has pulled an Oda quite a few times as well.
    As far as I know he's done it at least 3 times(2008 Worlds, 2010 Rostelecom Cup and 2012 GPF).
    He can say "I pulled myself." instead of "I pulled a Nobunari."