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Patrick Chan embarks on season with new coach, choreographers and two new programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 7, 2012.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    When you look at Takahashi, his body movement is incredibly detailed, he has lot of little choreographic touches and he is utilising his whole body throughout his programs, moving it very fluidly, and just he oozes expression. His movement is very soft and cat-like.

    Chan does technically skate to the music but I find him missing the above qualities. Well maybe not missing but he's not on Dai's level.

    Also, there are some skaters who have very distinct styles or who always show something strong conceptually, that stands out. Chan "just" shows very good craftsmanship.

    He is probably the most skilled male skater to have ever competed, I just wish his programs were more daring and original. I largely blame Lori Nichol - the worst peddler of toilet break "choreography" - for this state of affairs and I have hopes of his programs being much more interesting this season since he finally decided to work with somebody else. Shame it's Wilson and Buttle though and not somebody like Miyamoto or Dickson or Camerlengo. :/

    As I've written above, Chan's style just isn't as flashy as Takahashi's or Abbott's - to give two examples - but he does tick most of the PCS boxes.

    Those are two very brief moments. They don't cancel out everything that he showed for the vast majority of his performance.
    euler, alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  2. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Love you, Ziggy.
  3. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

    I agree there were moments in Chan's programs when he wasn't feeling nor responding to the nuances of the music, particularly jazz. That's where Takahashi shines--he IS jazz.

    However, I see Chan's artistic skills blossoming. He is extremely elegant and fluid in the Elegie, very spare, minimalistc choreo involving the arms but I like that. Most of the work is done by the blades, which are magical. It suits the program--the result is so elegant. I hope he develops in that direction.
  4. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    I think I may love you too, Ziggy.... like Marco. :p
    Fair enough, I know what you mean by Daisuke's cat like movement. Patrick did admit that 'he doesn't dance' (count ballet out) .. and I think his 'dance' means dancing in nightclubs/discos?? Personally, I see him as a very talented athlete first and dancer second.
    Patrick needs to skate to the genre he is most comfortable with. We will see in this season whether the change in choreographers and coaches will bring about changes in his programs. Though I really cannot imagine Patrick skating to a Michael Jackson! But there are some skaters who may pull this off ... like Daisuke, Florent and even Weir. :D
  5. 4rkidz

    4rkidz plotting, planning and travelling

    I think he is still developing his artistic side and with watching his exhibition program and Buttle's ability to tap into bringing out his passion and inner artist Patrick will be major force this season on the artistic side.. he is one of the smartest skaters i Know and approaches his craft very methodically, doing what is necessary to reach the next step. My one concern is if he focuses too much on the artistic side he will lose the equilibrium with his technical side - which does require a very methodical approach.. Which is what has happened with some other skaters who almost get 'lost' in their program - that they 'become' their program which is incredible for us to watch.. but can also lead to technical difficulties.. IMHO :p

    ITA.. :D
  6. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    And so once again we go down the path that the audience -- both those who sit in the stands and those announcing - know how to better judge the program of a skater than the actual judges. :rolleyes: Gaaaaah, how many more times will someone trying to use that criteria as an excuse for why THEIR favourite didn't win.
    clarie and (deleted member) like this.
  7. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    ...and lots of comments about how Patrick is a great technician -- even on the PCS side and doesn't seem to have flashy or emotional qualities.
    I would debate that but am happy to let it go. What I will say is that's what CoP values more now...the technical side of artistry.

    This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"

    Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded. You can bemoan the lack of emotional impact Patrick makes on you but while it does matter a tich, it doesn't matter enough to drive a different result in the standings. If you want to be emotionally impacted, go watch show skating. If you want to appreciate technical brilliance in every aspect of skating down to the slightest nuance, follow eligible skating.

    Net net it's totally cool if Patrick doesn't do much for you...but trying to connect your feelings to your judgement of where skaters should be placing will forever be a losing battle.
  8. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member


    Have a few sins to confess.:slinkaway I don't usually have a problem with Nichol's choreographies, I always found them clever and stylish and I think Lori has good taste in music. I am not familiar with Miyamoto's work, can't name any masterpiece program he may have created. I often had trouble in the past to understand Dickson's choreographic ideas. Haven't formed an opinion yet of Jeffrey Buttle as a choreographer for competition. No OTT Camerlengo style for Chan please. I have mixed feelings for David Wilson, I thought some of his programs were brilliant while others never appealed to me.

    While I am ready to admit to Chan's inferiority to other skaters in terms of how he expresses the music, I wouldn't trade his incredibly effortless skating/edging and fluid movement over the ice for anything of what other men have to offer to the sport even though I'm well aware that Chan's brilliant skating qualities will probably never get the same recognition from fs fans as the drama or theatrics other men are so able to display in their performances on the ice.

    I'd just like Chan to learn to stay focused all throughout his programs, I mean he lands two gorgeous quadruple jumps, a solid 3A or a most amazing second 3Lz right in the middle of the rink with one of the most difficult entries into the jump one can think of but he falls on a stupid double A. Don't you just want to strangle him with your bare hands?:lol:

    Ad nauseum, I presume.;)
  9. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    There are many different types/definitions of "artistry".
    I respect all - and enjoy - most examples of them.
  10. frisette70

    frisette70 Active Member

    I agree and i think it has a lot to do with his age, we often forget that Patrick is only 21...
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

    We really noticed this at the GPF this year. He put on a little bit more muscle this fall and his power is now quite impressive. 2 pushes (yep, we counted :lol:) to get from one end of the rink to the other. Amazing for sure.

    Exactly! Rome wasn't built in a day people. Kurt Browning at 21 was nothing more than a jumping bean. The programs Lori Nichol choreographs are not artistic masterpieces, but they are very COP savvy and go a long way in developing young skaters' technical skills. But Patrick has outgrown her choreo now, and it's time for him to work with other choreographers who will help develop his artistic skills. Elegie is the first program of his to really knock my socks off. I'm looking forward to seeing the competitive version.
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Rock2 - very good point.

    It's one thing to talk about what you like and don't like but judging needs to be based on qualities that can be reasonably defined. "Soul" and "artistry" definitely aren't those.

    Daisuke Takahashi - The Eye (2010 Olympic SP)

    This x infinity. Especially because then people focus on the mistakes and seem to forget everything that happened before them.
  13. trevor

    trevor New Member

    According to his mother, whom I had conversation with, modern dance movements from Johnson, who was a graduate of Julliard School,and wrote books on dance Biomechanics?, helped Patrick to improve on traditonal Jump technics, and the Krall system of Jump Teacher, audio visual on screen, was over exaggerated. The muscles used in modern dance movements, are used and applied in skating jumps and movements, and that helped Patrick a lot.;)
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    It would be great if Johnson became more involved in skating. Perhaps developing an off-ice training program for skaters?
  15. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Isn't he a year younger than Jeremy Ten and a year older than Liam Firus? Take a look at what they did in Salt Lake this weekend and it kinda puts things in perspective.
  16. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    I'm such a disgrace, I didn't know Miyamoto choreographed that SP for Takahashi. I'm not a fan of busy/flashy costumes or crazy hairstyles in athletes but that program was terrific by all means, a real joy to watch.:)

    Thanks, Ziggy.

    I'm not arguing Johnson wouldn't have helped Patrick improve his technique on the jumps but I'd still feel more relaxed if I knew he had a technical coach the old-school way. Maybe I'm wrong to worry though.
  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Yes, definitely this.

    Whilst it's very interesting to hear about Johnson's research into biomechanics and whilst that knowledge will surely help Chan, jumps and skating in general also - and even more so - relies on edges. You need to have a coach who can give you that input as well.
  18. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Very subjective. I love all Chan's programs...all of the movements, little movements...it's more than just technical stuff. And everyone's skating is about scoring. It's a competition, not Stars on Ice.
  19. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    He got penalties for all his mistakes. Other skaters didn't skate well either. Overall, his program was still the hardest among all other competitors.
  20. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    I disagree completely. Chan has so many small elements that other skaters don't have. I'm not an expert, but Tracey Wilson sometimes point out the very simple stuff that he has in his skates that separate him for others.

    I do not find Dai's busy hand movements are anything other than busy hand movements. I sometimes find his hands move more than his feet. And this is about skating, not sign language competition.

    Very distinct styles are subjective. Some may find someone like Weir's style is distinctive...but after watching year after year, it's same old same old. Amodio is the same, always dramatic. Dai use the same type of music ALL THE TIME. Jourber's techno forever.... I find Chan has more variety than these skaters.

    Flashy means nothing other than just flashy. Chan's more subtle...but that doesn't mean his has no style nor distinctive.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  21. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Different people have different style. True, Chan may not look well skating to MJ's music because he's more classical and subtle instead of "flashy". I don't see Dai or Jourbert look well for classical either. It's just different style. For some to say that because Chan's not "flashy" enough, he is lack of style is crazy.
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    It's a)so not an elements+skating skills competition. There are PCS that cover movement, choreography, musical interpretation, and engagement (however stupidly it's worded.)

    It's not as if Chan's main competition is performing 2A, 3T, 3S, and L1 spins.

    It is possible to appreciate what Chan, and Abbott and Takahashi et al bring to skating.
  23. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Those fans seem to confuse with competition skating and exhibition/show skating.

    All these qualities are NOT enough...cause he didn't make some sad faces, or fling his arms in the air.
  24. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Yes, and Chan has all of those elements as well. It's just some like to think that although he's technically sounded....all of his other elements are not up there to the like of Abbott or Dai.
  25. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    In terms of skating, yes. I was talking about upper body movement.

    Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.

    And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

    With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

    It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.

    Also, you really need to chill out. :p
  26. trevor

    trevor New Member

    He, Patrick, when I saw him in his off season Asian tour, in person, was engaged alright. The dances, in T shirt and shimmering showwear, were all so advanced, smooth, that they left the local spectators, in awe.

    His requirement for proper pre-show preparation is very strict, fully exercised aerobic workouts on jogging machine before the shows, etc. guaranteed a flexible, fluid performance all the time.

    In comparison, I also watch Buttle, Browning, Plushenko and others in later show, and they appear more showy, but without the fluidity and smootness of Chan.
  27. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    There are other skaters who can do that besides Takahashi.

    To each his/her own. Some of us prefer the dramatic and expressive and some prefer the understated. Give me Patrick and Kozuka any time. :)

    We all need to chill out before it gets too hot in here. (Anyway, you are bad Ziggy. You threw THE stone in the hornet's nest. Newton's third law: for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.) ;)
  28. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Everyone who watches him doesnt GET Patrick but I can tell you that every skater gets Patrick and those who snipe at him are just jealous.

    Also watching Patrick skating in person is a thing of beauty! A lot is lost on You tube or TV.
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    If I had a dollar for every time someone online suggested that criticism must be due to jealousy, I could actually afford to go to the Olympics!

    For me, I'm glad that Chan's finally left Nichol; she's been doing better work for Kostner than she has for him. But I am once again underwhelmed by his music choices. The closest thing to a risky choice I've seen in his career was Take Five. As Ziggy stated, a lot of other skaters work within a certain range because they found a style that works for them - but with Chan, I'm not seeing a personal style, so more variety would be nice. Well, to each their own.

    Look, it's fine to like Chan's skating, and it's okay not to like it. Both are valid opinions. But just because you enjoy his skating and performances doesn't mean that everyone must.
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  30. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    ^^^ No one is forcing you to. Emdee speaks in awe of Patrick's skating just as some of us are but we never say you should appreciate the skaters we like. Artistry is harder to measure than technical skills. A beautiful painting to one may be unattractive to another. To each his/her own...
    Hope you can go to the Olympics .. I wish that too.:)