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Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by arakwafan2006, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

  2. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    Thanks for the video links!

    Some discussion of this topic was started yesterday in the Japanese news thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...-amp-updates&p=3826432&viewfull=1#post3826432
    Here's one post with a Japanese article link:
  4. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    LOL Interestingly, in this video, he speaks about the fact that he kept thinking about "how to erase the Morozov-coloring [from the choreo]" (I think someone on the Daisuke Fan Forum translated it as "Morozovism") ;)

    I agree though that Morozov has done quite a few decent to very good short programs - it's usually in the FS that I feel he sometimes very much lacks vision
  5. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

    Ironically enough, the free skate LOOKS like something Morozov would do and not Shae- Lynn
  6. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    So, classical piano sp's for both Chan and Takahashi. Interesting choice/strategy on Takahashi and Morozov's part.

    I can already hear the :argue: here over the PCS marks, particularly the IN mark, at worlds.

  7. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member


    Daisuke Takahashi changed for a Beethoven composition

    Official practices for the Four Continents Championships of Figure skating (opening on the 8th, at Osaka Chuo district Gymnasium) started on February 6 and Daisuke Takahashi, Yuzuru Hanyu and Takahito Mura, of the Men's division, could get a feel of the rink for the first time

    Takahashi, who skated his short program until now to a Rock'n'Roll medley, will change music, starting with this competition, to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. "I got this proposition from Morozov 'Why couldn't you change [SP]'. It's not that the program I had until now was bad, but it felt like it was difficult to get the points. It's been a while since I did classic, yet moves come naturally, it's a program when I can be more carefree [or "I feel more at ease"]. Now I want to know how it will be received" he said

    So far this season, Yuzuru Hanyu leads two victories to one [Note: the Japanese press is currently obsessed by the head-to-head between Takahashi and Hanyu - don't ask :rolleyes:] "If I win here, I could make it 2-2 leading to the World Championships. I think that would be fun" he said laughing
  8. homura

    homura New Member

    This video's narrator said, Dai is trying to erase Morozov color and fill the vacancy with his own style in order to create synergy effect.
  9. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    That's just wonderful to hear!
  10. BittyBug

    BittyBug And the band played on

    Well he was world-level ice dancer.
  11. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

    So was Pasquale Camerlengo but he does not move like Morozov these days but thanks captain obvious for filling me in...

    I have heard Tanith Belbin and meryl davis mention how impressed they are that Igor still skates so well. He does BTW as i have seen him a few times working with skaters. I am just often impressed by how good some coaches are even years after they retired. Natalia Deller's edge control, posture and precision is just insane to see. Almost none of the top dancers can duplicate her movement precisely... especially freestyle skaters lol.

    I digress
  12. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Adding to both Chan and Takahashi skating their long programs to opera music.;)


    Yes, indeed. Takahashi's LP choreo of this season actually reminded me quite a lot of the I Pagliacci LP Morozov choreographed for Voronov last season.
  13. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    arakwafan2006, -97 points for an all caps title. :lynch:

    Why does Morozov have to destroy the most interesting skaters? :drama:

    Ilynikh/Katsalapov, Leonova, Amodio and now the amazing, one-in-a-million Takahashi who's capable of interpreting the music like nobody else.

    Can't he start choreographing for Max Aaron instead? :p
    AnnMJensen and (deleted member) like this.
  14. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I know I'm in a minority and that I'm probably gonna get :lynch: for saying this (or dismissed as a Takahashi fan who can't think straight, or whatever), but I don't think that free program is either bad nor feels anything like most of Morozov's bad FS choreo. And that's coming from someone who a) hated Morozov's R&J for Takahashi (among others) and who b) also loved S-L Bourne's Mambo because it was a whole lot of fun, but who thought it wasn't that great purely on a choreographic level, in particular for a competitive program

    I agree that it's nowhere near Blues for Klook from last season, but that was a masterpiece as far as I am concerned, both from a choreographic and from an interpretation point of view, so almost any new program wouldn't compare favorably

    But I think the issue with Pagliacci is more down to the choice of music itself, Takahashi's own difficulty with the quads (requiring long setting up times that essentially waste one minute at the beginning of the program) and the fact that he started it only in September (which didn't leave him enough time to grow into it before the beginning of the GP season). However, while the choreography is not genius, I think S-L Bourne actually did a pretty competent job with it - it at least has direction and purpose (although one could regret that the development is kept linear), things that are often missing from Morozov's recent FS choreos, imo. And that Takahashi has shown a growing understanding of it through the season so far


    That's the first thing that popped in my mind when I read about the Moonlight Sonata. I hope for them that they know what they are doing (knowing Morozov, I'm not so sure :lol:) because this program will put him head-to-head with Chan who has arguably one of the 2-3 best SP choreos this season in the men's field

    So yeah I can hear the cries and the rumble from here as well :lol:
  15. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

    My comment about the free looking like Nikoli's was not negative. I really prefer it. I truly hope he wins in Sochi! I think that Shae Lynn left the program somewhat bare but it seem's paced well enough for Dai.

    To your point about R&J by Nickoli, I just believe that innovation for 4+ mins is not his strongsuite.He can take a theme for a short program however and really deliver.
  16. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    The 5 minutes long video discussing Daisuke Takahashi's new SP has been translated in English by the usual suspect (aka izayukam)

  17. maureenfarone

    maureenfarone Well-Known Member

    I greatly enjoyed watching Daisuke practice, but did not have English subtitles. I did have Japanese subtitles, so maybe it is going to be translated - but isn't done yet.
  18. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I've rechecked and the subtitles are definitely there (the Japanese subtitles are the ones from the original recording)

    If they don't appear automatically, click on the [cc] under the video which should make them appear as well as a menu with different captions settings ;)
  19. skate65

    skate65 New Member

    Just watched and the english subtitles come up nicely. Thanks for posting. Risky move but I'm sure he'll pull it off - he is such an artist and although it is a standard piece (as they call it), it is a beautiful piece with a lot of emotion that suits him well. I love playing this piece with its long lyrical melody in the sustained notes in the right hand with the sonorous broke triads and underlying bass notes.
  20. homura

    homura New Member

  21. maureenfarone

    maureenfarone Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the tip on the cc option - I had to use that to make the English subtitles appear. It was very interesting to hear Dai's comments. It was a pleasure to watch the practice again :swoon:
  22. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Ohh mann... really not sure how I feel about this. I am excited, but cynical about the whole thing. Guess we will Just have to see how it goes at 4CC. It feels like Daisuke has gone to the dark side of the force. The Jedi master is becoming a Darth Dai? Compromised by lord Sidious with his promises of power?

    Usually what makes Dai so interesting is the contrasts and diversity between his SP and LP. With this mid interim change to Moonlight Sonata, it feels too calculated, too appeasing to the COP judges, and too similar to his FS choice. Rather than the typical organic creative process that Daisuke develops year to year. It is like they are now trying to inject extra richness by adding extra butter and salt to make a dish taste better, but too much oil can make it greasy (lol ... no i am not a fan of M)/ I suppose this is the first time it shows Dai REALLY REALLY want to win and even willing to compromise his artistry in the interest of competition.

    I can't blame him really. He was kicked to the side walk at Nationals, and despite taking a risk with his rockin roller program with a local talent, it just didn't work out. Didn't have the prestige of a world brand COP master, so some bitterness and knee jerk reaction is expected. So he attempt to upgrade - fast... in step Morozov who like any choreographer out there must be dying for a chance to work with Daisuke since he is capable of bring so much extra to any choreographed work.

    One thing I have always loved about Dai's is his capability to bring a sense of experimentation and and playfulness that is not necessarily in the choreography. So it would be interesting to see how this contrast with his FS. I hope he doesn't end up too safe and generic, too middle aged, because I'd hate to see COP destroy another charismatic performer trying to fit the mold.
  23. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

    Thanks - I wouldn't have known about the cc - it worked beautifully.

    Gosh, I love this guy! He's wonderful. If he thinks this had to be done then it had to be done. How far he can take it first time out will be interesting (of course almost everything he does is interesting) but in terms of the longer-term picture, I really do have faith. It may indeed look a bit generic this weekend but over time I trust he will ensure that he will insert his own brand of the elegance into the program. I do like the choice of music though and I think it will help him emphasize (in addition to the elements), line and long edges (those can be real strengths for him as we know).
  24. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    Er, can't we wait until we see his SP (and preferably at Worlds because personally, I find a majority of Takahashi's programs do take a bit of time to mature) before judging whether he's compromised his artistry or not? Just saying :shuffle:

    Don't get me wrong - I did take my head in my hands when I read the news and that he would be skating to Moonlight Sonata because he's already doing the FS on a classic and we're losing the contrast, as you said. I am not Morozov's biggest fan and I don't exactly have huge faith in his qualities as choreograph (although, while I think he's on average mediocre, he does have moments of brilliance) - still, I don't share the hatred some people seem to have for him

    There is no denying that Takahashi wants to win - he said it enough times in interviews and he also never hid the fact that he thought having Morozov in the team could help because he was Russian (and I guess because of Morozov's clout). But he also was pretty adament during his interview pre 4CC when he explained the process of changing his SP, that he was also constantly thinking, while working on the choreo, how to erase the Morozov-flavor from it, to replace with his own, which tells me that he's well aware of Morozov's limitations as a choreographer. He also stated that he was more interested this time around to perform rather than worry about the results - although I cannot pretend to know what he really thinks, that doesn't strike me as the state of mind of someone who compromises on his artistry for better marks (although I have no doubt the Moonlight Sonata suggestion also came from the fact that it's more likely to be understood by the judges than Vas' In the Garden of Souls)

    In a way, I guess that's a new experiment for him as he had to put probably more ideas in to make the program less Morozov's and more him. And maybe the program will not work - but maybe it will. But the bottom line is, we haven't seen it yet. And as a matter of fact, the feedback from people who have seen it in practice was unanimously positive - so maybe, just maybe, all hope is not lost and we could withhold judgement for now?
  25. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    I think there must have been some input from judges about the first sp. Really close to worlds though to be changing, but this seems to fit him well.
  26. Fudove

    Fudove Member

    I think it needs a few more miles. It is hard to do wrong with Moonlight Sonata combined with Dai's skills. :cool:
    I expected more in the second mark...I think the PCS was too low and too close to those in high 30s.
  27. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    I agree and not :D

    I think the situation is similar to the Free program: the structure is not genius but it's solid. There are lovely touches in the programs, elements of choreo that are not flamboyant but underline the nuances of the music beautifully (that uper body movement that accompagnies the music just before the entry into the 2nd spin is :swoon:)

    What it needs to ignite though is Takahashi's ability to transcend the material. But it's been done (awfully) late, he hasn't had the time to grow into it, and therefore he hasn't set it alight completely. He felt contracted throughout (he said in post SP press conference that he "was overthinking it") and not extending the movements as well as he's capable of. I thought that was particularily evident in the steps sequence: you can tell it's tailor-built for his ability and it has the potential to be mind-blowing but it's not there yet

    I think another crucial point was the fall on the 3A: as often, his 3A is placed at very specific moment of the phrasing of the music (that's also the case for the 2nd 3A in the long program) which means that when he doesn't do them clean, it hits the program's momentum pretty badly

    Although I think relatively to other skaters, his PCs are too low, in absolute they are a bit stringy but not unreasonable (although some of the individual marks were downright laughable)

    So yeah, to me it was disappointing on the performance but not on the program and I'm looking forward to see it at Worlds, hopefully clean
  28. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Samo Samo, generic, bland, not fresh, not appealing, and certainly don't do any justice to a skater of Dai's caliber.

    Way to go ruin one of the most interesting, charismatic sparkly skaters out there. It is like one dark cloak being pulled over to cover all the lightness, uniqueness and appeal of Takahashi. Sigh.... one wonder which part belong to M and which part to D. Dai should skate like Dai, not some watered down European leading man packaged theme du jour ala Morozov. Even if he hit all the jumps in performance, I'd still feel the same way. And no amount of step sequences at the end should be able to compensate for the void for everything else in the first half. It is the same COP layout we have seen in and out, not surprised by this at all.
  29. itoja

    itoja New Member

    :respec: For connoisseurs only! :hat1:

    I think it is a little gift from Dai to those geeky fans who can watch and analyze for hours every nuance of his every little move. We will probably see this program only twice, and it probably will never appeal to the public like Swan Lake, La Strada or Blues did. But for those who value musical interpretation the most, those steps done to the music, those moments when his hands capture the melody while his legs beat the rhythm and his hair simultaneously moves to the sound of the soul of the music, it will be very precious gem in the collection.
  30. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

    Yes, the hair choreography is truly trail blazing. Should be its own PCS category.