Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Jul 9, 2011.
Welcome to my list of ignored posters.
This statement confuses me. Chan marked unreasonably in the SP guaranteed Canada one gold medal (according to your argument). How does reasonable (in this case, lower) marks make it more likely Canada wins two?
I'm not quite convinced he was overmarked. You can make the case that his transitions and choreography marks were actually closer to the rest of the field than they should have been and everything was so spot on and fluid that I can see why the judges went to the upper registers for GOEs. He actually had slightly lower PCS for his Worlds SP than his GPF SP.
As for Ando, I'll be frank, I didn't even bother watching her LP (Morosov tends to choreograph better SPs imo). She generally bores me. But I thought her Worlds SP was quite lovely. Maybe it's just the music talking, though.
As for dance, I'd love to agree with you (that V/M were robbed/unfair judging) - I truly would, but I cannot.
I don't want to go into details, as I find this as the ugliest part of figure skating. Since this is nothing new, you might want to review past history. You may agree or disagree, since it is only my hunch with no proof.
IMO, Chan had been over-marked all through last season, not just SP at the Worlds.
The Mission soundtrack is a piece of music that does wonders covering up mediocre skating. No wonder it is one of the most preferred music for juniors and novices skaters at events such as regional and sectional legs of US Nationals.
Like TripleButz said, V/M might have been lacking polish in their programs. However, D/W were missing the very core essence of ice dancing IMO, and it should have been more than enough to offset whatever lackings V/M might have had.
You don't have to twist my arm.
I think RumbleFish is implying that Skate Canada politiked HARD for Patrick Chan. Had they just let Chan do his stuff and win without the supposed inflated mark through politiks, the judges might give the Gold to V/M?
This is what I'm understanding is from reading RumbleFish's posts, not what I think did happen.
All I'm saying is that Chan and V/M deserved gold and Weaver/Poje the bronze in terms of skating IMO. Kudos to them.
As for why only Chan got the deserved medal? I have a hunch but don't have conviction.
Do people shoot themselves in the foot? Sometimes yes.
Men's 2010 Olympics, Dai should've been miles ahead over Plushenko and light-years away from that L.-guy ....
The one qualm my husband has always had with ice dance is that the outcome is usually decided before anyone skates. He was in it for several years and protocol judging is still alive and well. D&W skated cleanly and they were slotted to win. The only way they wouldn't have won is if they fell.
ITA that W&P should have been higher up after all was said and done in '11 World's. I don't get the hooplala about the Shib's. I understand about D&W, P&B, V&M but the Shib's do nothing for me. Maybe I am sick of Shpilband's/ Zueva's choreography but feel D&W and V&M rise above the crap they are given but the Shib's aren't quite there yet...not sure. W&P and P&B are such great couples, with a maturity and finesse that the Shib's just don't have yet IMVHO. They are pleasant enough skaters to watch but them getting bronze is beyond my comprehension. I understand that P&B were out due to the fall but still don't get the Shib's winning bronze over W&P.
You just used a perfect example to describe what happened with the bronze medal. You said "D&W skated cleanly and they were slotted to win. The only way they wouldn't have won is if they fell." Well, let me tell you, P&B were slated to win bronze. The only way they wouldn't have is if they fell. And, they did.
BTW, IDK how you can assert D/W were slotted to win when V/M won the SD..?
D/W skated like they had known this IMO. Rather than performing to the audience, they were trying hard to carry out stuff they had prepared and get through it. If we are contempt with status quo of protocol judging, there should be no problem. But I am stating my criticisms since we are discussing whether certain events were well judged or not.
I had actually found Shibs' FD quite charming despite their lack of transitions and flow over the ice. In Moscow, however, they didn't skate their programs well at all. Their SD was scratchy and sloppy particularly in the GW section. Their FD totally lacked energy and flow hence should have been marked much lower. Disappointed look on their faces just after they had skated told the story for me.
Weaver and Poje, OTOH, skated as well as they could in both SD and FD. They might not have power and coverage of V/M and D/W yet, but their performances were definitely highlights of 2012 Moscow Worlds for me.
V&M had skated their OD several times in public prior to her surgery (I personally saw it live in September/2010 in Shall We Dance). World's was the 1st place they showed their full FD. The OD is shorter, requires less stamina so it would have been much easier and within reason for V&M to skate better than D&W to win that portion of the competition. Not to mention, V&M are better at compulsories than D&W.
I don't know if P&B were slated for bronze. I truly though a Russian team would slide in there. Notably B&S. I thought the bronze was open. The last team I ever saw there was the Shib's.
Since the event was held in Moscow, I thought Bobrova & Solobiev had a good chance to edge out Pechalat & Bourzat if Bobrova managed to keep her back straight.
What is it with Miki that some people just can't accept anything she does? I mean, while she may not be the most flashy skater she does (for me at least) feel the music and interpret it in a subtle way. Also, the Finnish commentator, who has stated many times that she doesn't like her style and feels she's not emotional, actually thought this time she was very expressive and interpretted the music she had. Sometimes to me it seems that we all have difficulties in changing the view on some skaters if we don't like them at first but they make improvements.
IDK, I think the scores from the SD (especially the PCS) say it all about who was intended to medal.
I never think things are locked after the 1st program. Maybe back in the 90's, whoever won the CD's won the event. Now, I think they like to change things up so that it looks more like a competition.
2010 Oly's was like that. V&M were not in the top spot after the CD round but they won. D&S (Rus) were in the top spot and edged out B&A for bronze. (Which I didn't agree with...I thought B&A skated fabulous in Vancouver and should have won bronze over D&S)
I think B/A should've won bronze too. I mentioned that up thread. I agree that it is a bit easier to move up/down in the standings now, but not that much. Usually never more then a place or two.
It was really ironic too, last year was the 1st time since 2001-2 that I really liked B&A too. They were robbed bigtime.
Oh well, it would've been tough for the judges not to put a Euro team on the podium.
But it happened a year later at Worlds.
I think I&K are the future for Russian ice dance IMVHO. Won't surprise me in the slightest if they win Oly gold in Sochi.
I think politics pretty much ruled the dance results almost from 85 thru 2002 and produced a lot of bad judging, but I think I would nominate pretty much any ice dance event from about 1999 - 2006 as especially badly judged. I (and a lot of others) thought Fusar-Poli/Margaglio were overmarked and over-rewarded pretty much their whole careers. She had a graceless, style-less, bull-in-a-China-shop approach to dance and he was markedly weak technically for a final flight skater. While F-P/M got good results in spite of this weakness, the same imbalance problem was what nailed Drobiasco/Vanagas. I think Drobiasco was perhaps even weaker than Margaglio, but the real difference was that they skated for a country with no ISU influence, unlike Italy.
Ice dance was going thru a weird patch between 98 and 2002, when a number of the top teams were pretty imbalanced and the judges were really inconsistent/confused on whether to place the team based on the stronger member or based on the weaker. IMO that is a big reason we see so much emphasis in COP on side by side moves like the SBS twizzles and the no-touch step sequences.
I read through this thread very quickly, so sorry if it's been mentionned already...
2004 Euros (Budapest), men. Brian winning is about the only placement that makes sense to me. How on earth the judges put Plushenko and his LP meltdown in 2nd is beyond my understanding. IMO Dambier should have been 2nd in the LP, beating Klimkin overall, and Plush should have been around 6th in the LP.
Sale singled her double axel. This program was more sophisticated than Love Story with a lot more interesting in-between moves. Not that it counted like it would have in early COP years but this program also had a second death spiral and harder lifts.
B&S crashed the 3 twist, Anton had a small step-out on their sequence, and their throw loop was anything but steady. They also received a lot of criticism during the year for the middle of their Chaplin program for the huge pause/rest period.
I loved this program but had to agree that their step sequence really didn't come off as a step sequence.
It really could have gone either way and the momentum was with S&P for the year who had won other events (GPF) with poorer skates.
S&P won that OGM fair and square. However, how many times have we seen the clear winner of the event take home the silver? Urmanov over Stojko. Baiul over Kerrigan. etc So why should S&P get a GM?
IMO, B&S are the 2002 OGM. Period. Yes, their skate was poor and sloppy and OSM worthy, but the only reason S&P got a GM is because of the controversy. If in your opinion S&P were rightfully given the GM, then so should Kerrigan and Stojko and the many others that have been robbed.
So, because some has been robbed in the past, it's not a problem to rob in the future ? ^^
Anyway, I don't think B&S's skate was poor and sloppy, and I don't think S&P won fair and square.
I think that B&S should have been lower than S&P technically, but they should have been higher artistically and won the gold. They had so many difficult and innovative transitions, and they had a more emotional skate. That should make up for the mistakes.
I think it was a competition that could have gone either way, and it should have been left alone to be debated by the fans like so many others. As I said before, even in CoP there is no "perfectly judged" competition, so when the thread title is "most poorly" judged, it makes me wonder why so many people bring up close calls. This should be about blatant mismarking and misuse of the rules.
Just a note, B&S did not have a mistake during the jump sequence, Anton took off his heel, and had a weird air position ,but it was completed cleanly and was ratified .
I thought the LP could have gone either way. What I found very strange in the 2001 Pairs SP was S&P's placement in the SP. She fell on the SBS jump yet they were barely third on a 5-4 split with S&Z, and well ahead of many cleaner pairs.
I don't think I'm missing the point. Even among a person's so-called non "favorites" people still have a pecking order of whose style/aesthetics they prefer. Unless you are telling me you equally liked - or disliked, as the case may be - the three medalists (which I would find very difficult to believe).
But anyway, here's the first part of your post that I failed to include the first time around:
It can't be that clear, as people rigorously debate the PCS used at just about every competition, and people argue different portions of the CoP to bolster their point of view.
Some of the competitions noted here were rather poorly skated by the balance of the field - maybe not complete splat-fests, but lots of minor to major errors to go around. It would have been difficult to get any consensus as to the "correct" order of the results.
Also note that the different scoring systems penalized different kinds of errors more severely (e.g. under-rotations from Nakano at 2008 Worlds were more treated more severely than Kostner's several step outs)
You're talking about fans, not judges.