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Michelle Kwan vs. Joannie Rochette - who wins?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sugar, Apr 3, 2008.

  1. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    I think her speed varied more than some other skaters. It depended on the day. Some performances like the 2000 worlds LP she was flying. Others like the 98 Olympics she was more tenative and slow. I did see Kwan live a couple times though, and her skating skills, speed, and ice coverage all look better in person generally. Her quality of edge is impeccable, not quite YuNa Kim, Yuka Sato, Shizuka Arakawa, or Carolna Kostner, but the next best level after that. Which was very noticeable even if her speed isnt the most of everyone.
     
  2. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    The scores were out of whack. I dont think Adelina deserved to win, I would have had her 4th in the LP and 3rd overall, but if she won by a tiny margin with more reasonable scores people would be less upset I think. Her win wouldnt be the worst I ever saw if it were just a narrow win. She won by so much, and won the LP by this giant margin, when most had her finishing 4th in the LP, something that smelt bad about it all. In the short program with only a triple toe-triple toe she beats Kostner with a much harder combo and almost Kim. Beating a clean Kostner on PCS in the long program, and getting higher points in skating skills than Kostner. They just made it all too obvious.

    And I remember on goldenskate some people going into technical specifics, how under the rules her footwork sequence couldnt be a level 4 but was and Yu Na Kim's was a level 4 but wasnt given it. Her triple lutz-triple toe in the LP was both flutzed and underrotated, and gets called for neither and almost the same GOE as Kim's spectacular one. The jump she stumbled badly out of was less than -1 in GOE average. Generous GOE and PCS in nearly every element and place for Adelina, while super stingy in every place for Kim, Kostner, and worst of all the LP for Mao Asada which only didnt get more attention since she wasnt in medal contention. Again just too obvious was what going on, with a very tiny win margin, and reasonable scoring the scandal might not be the same as it became. And Julia bombed enough to not medal, but some of her scoring specifics were even worse if you look at her skates and look at some of the protocals.

    The worst thing is the bad judging of her win almost ruined her career in a way since she has basically dissapeared and refuses to skate out of Russia since then. Probably due to the vicious public reaction of her win and the scoring of the event, which is ISU and judging corruption, not her fault.
     
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  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Thus far, this has been the very worst thing that has happened to Adelina. She just showed up and skated her programs. The scores and placements were completely out of her control, but they have caused her so much grief. This is the double edged sword of judges making a champion rather than allowing the skater to earn it, although by my own scoring, Adelina legitimately deserved to be somewhere and anywhere on the podium.
     
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  4. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Well-Known Member

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    At this point, does it matter. Oh well this is the trash can.
     
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  5. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Well-Known Member

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    We seem to be desperate to generate any activity here! I miss the old days when skating was major and the stars invoked passion! The latest just aren't doing it I guess! It's not too hard to absolutely miss a telecast of Nat'ls or Worlds due to little to no advertising! Take me back to '98 when the GP was so huge, there were prime time telecasts to go along with TV events of singles and teams; esp. on Fox! We got nothing until March since 4 Cont. hasn't been a real event IMO in years! :rolleyes: :duh: :wall:
     
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  6. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    ITA. I feel sorry for Adelina overall if anything.

    I even watched a Kerrigan-Harding documentary the other day and enjoyed it. That is scary. The sport is definitely missing any excitement these days other than the mens taking scores and jumps to a new level I guess, but even then there isnt a classic rivalry like the Brians or Plushenko-Yagudin or Stojko vs Urmanov/Kulik. I guess Fernandez vs Hanyu but they are training buddies and best friends, so there is no tension.

    Scott Hamilton said recently the Harding-Kerrigan thing actually ruined skating since skating blew up and got too big from 95-99, especialy pro skating, that it had nowhere to go but down and just blew up. And the contracts got too big to the point they could never maintain the interest level to be justified. He has a point but I think it is alot more than that. Cinquanta resigning should be a boost for the sport but Didier G steps in which is way worse.
     
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  7. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    I do think Michelle is probably a better skater than Joannie but you seem to be implying the person who wins more medals is always the better skater and so since Michelle achieved so much more than Joannie that means everyone has to automatically think she is a better skater. This isnt always true.

    Do you consider Herma Plack Szabo a better skater than Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan? She definitely achieved alot more and was way more dominant than both with 5 straight world golds in singles, 3 straight world golds in pairs, and Olympic Gold. She was denied a 6th world title in 1927 only since 3 Norwegian judges voted Henie while the 2 non Norwegian voted Herma, so you might as well give her that too. So is she better than Kwan and Kim? Of course not, nowhere close to as good considering she ended up being totally forgotten once Henie was around a few years and is unknown today, but if best were just on achievements she would be since she achieved way more than they did.

    Is Katarina Witt a better skater than Yu Na Kim, Mao Asada, and Michelle Kwan? With 2 Olympic Golds, 4 world titles in 5 years, 6 straight European titles, and only 1 loss in about 15 competitions in a 5 season span, she achieved way more than they did, so if more success = better she has to be. Anyone who saw her skate knows she is nowhere near as good a skater as Kim, Asada, or Kwan though, she isnt even as good as Slutskaya probably. She won so much through being a good competitor, an era without much depth, being in an era compulsory figures made younger skaters wait their turn, and a European bloc of judges behind her.

    Is Evan Lysacek a better skater than Stephane Lambiel and Daisuke Takahashi? He achieved roughly the same, but people consider him nowhere near the skater those guys were, and most find him boring and average who was just a good competitor and was in the right place at the right time. I am sure you consider Lambiel and Takahashi way better skaters than Evan too, even though their achievements are close to equal overall.

    So one doesnt happen to accept Kwan being better than Rochette just since she achieved more. Unless you are willing to admit Herma Plack and Katarina Witt are way better skaters than Yu Na Kim or Michelle Kwan, Lysacek an equal or better skater than the artistically stunning, quad fully able and mesmorizing Lambiel and Takahashi, or Yagudin and Plushenko better skaters than John Curry. All which would be ridiculous.
     
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  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Well, I can guarantee you that Herma and Katarina were way better than Yu Na and Michelle in compulsory figures, which is the real figure skating ;)

    (BTW, do you mean Herma Szabo, as opposed to Herma Plack?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  9. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    I dont know about Herma, but Katarina wasnt partcularly good at compulsory figures at all. Look at this clip from the 88 Olympics:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-yn9XYq0k

    That figure at 4:02 looks pretty weak and Peggy seems to think it was pretty lame. How on earth is she sitting between two figures godesses- Ivanova and Thomas, after that 2nd figure even if she had a good 1st one? Just look at one of the comments below that sums it up perfectly: "Katarina Witt's 2nd figure was small, shaky and slow and she remained in SECOND after that?!?! Baffling. I guess her reputation was holding her up."

    And it isnt the only clip I saw her of doing figures and none look that impressive. I doubt her figures were even much better than Ito who was regularly 10-14th, but young Ito wasnt the reigning Olympic and many time World Champion with the communist bloc behind her. Do I think she was regularly better than people like Trenary, Kadavy, Leistner in figures as she regularly placed? Heck no. Her competitors complained about her placings in figures sometimes, much more than they ever did her placings in free skating.

    Yeah I mean Herma Szabo. I have seen her called under several different names so I am not even sure which one is right.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  10. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    The medals are the physical manifestation of the superiority, because having the competitive spirit to win is part of skating. Once you say results don't matter, well then who's to say the best skater in the world wasn't some kid who quit at 14 and never made it out of regionals. The entire sport revolves around competition and results, so what's the point of disregarding them when evaluating skaters. Unless the title of this thread has changed to " discuss wonderful skaters who never won the big prizes".

    My opinion is that Kwan is overall superior to JR in every way. The titles aren't the reason, they are the result.

    None of your other examples were close to the unevenness of MK vs JR. I think it's folly to compare skaters from different eras, but Witt, Kwan, Kim and Mao were all multi-time WCs. Same with the 3 guys, all have world titles and Oly medals. This is like "who's the better skater, Kurt B or Tim G?" Or "Barbara's Ann Scott vs Barbara Ann Roles, who wins?"
     
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  11. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    I see your point but I still dont think the skater with more medals is always the better skater. I do think Kwan is overall better than Rochette, like you say though it isnt even based on just results though. You posted results to why nobody should argue it regardless what they think though.

    I consider Lambiel and Takahashi way better skaters than Lysacek, even if Lysacek has achieved as much or more overall. Their artistic and even technical legacies in the sport far outshine his. Evan is remembered as the guy with ok artistry, no distinctive style, who couldnt do a quad more than once every two years at a time they were already mainstay. In some ways I consider them better than Plushenko who for all his technical brilliance, was a dissapointment in artistry and choreography his whole career really.

    I will never consider Duhamel & Radford an all time great pair even if they sweep world and Olympic Golds the next 6 years too, unless they develop way more polish and chemistry on the ice. That doesnt mean I question their wins, they just dont totally equal greatness for me. Who would pop in a Duhamel & Radford program to rewatch over a Gordeeva & Grinkov or Miskutienok & Dmitriev or even a Shen & Zhao one? I even prefer to rewatch Sui & Han, Stolbova & Klimov, Savchenko & Massot skates from worlds last year over theirs even though all were flawed. Just more pleasing to the eye and that "two shall skate as one" quality of pairs skating.

    Mededeva will have to move me more before I rate her higher than Yu Na Kim, Mao Asada, or even Michelle Kwan, even though she seems to on the way to achieving more than both barring a huge career endng injury at some point. Right now she just makes the points and takes the title, and you are trying to stay awake while it is going on. Many others might be different and rate her the best modern skater just because she has the most titles, which is totally fine for those who think that way. It just wont be me if her skating doesnt start to inspire and excite me more than it currently does. I know you probably feel the same way when on the "can anyone win over Medvedeva at worlds" thread you called her boring and unremarkable, despite that she is cleaning up and more dominant competitively than a prime Kim, prime Asada, or prime Kwan right now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  12. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Well, I often find hypotheticals frustrating like that damn dress! I clearly see blue & black and someone else clearly see white & gold and until the manufacturer or designer or whomever states which it is, how does one say which is right. (Was this ever decided?) To me, the judges are the deciding vote. Otherwise it's just some people seeming blue & black and others seeing white & gold.
     
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  13. ilovepaydays

    ilovepaydays Well-Known Member

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    Overall, I say Michelle. But, I will also say that Joannie's performances at the 2010 Olympics gave me one of only two ugly cries in my many years of being a figure skating fan.

    Times that ilovepaydays has ever ugly cried over a figure skating performance:
    1. Rudy Galindo - 1996 U.S. Nationals LP
    2. Joannie Rochette - 2010 Olympics SP
    I just think this is worth noting. :)
     
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  14. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    IMO Joannie was even a slight underachiever. She had enough talent to be World Champion atleast once. She really didnt have any obvious weaknesses in her skating- big powerful jumps, decent spins, strong footwork, very good programs, strong basic skating. Her problem was she didnt have any one thing that really stood out either though. Still if Miki Ando could become World Champion twice, Joannie should have been able to. I think her best chances might have been 2010 worlds and 2011 worlds (which Miki won over a very subpar Yu Na Kim). Nagasu even could have won in 2010, so Joannie could have obviously had a shot too. It is totally understandable why she wouldnt want to go in 2010 so soon after what happened, and why she just gradualy faded into retirement after 2010, but those two years would have been real chances for her. 2012 probably too.
     
  15. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ^ I remember her being like the cop queen back in the day with people gaga over her "transition packed" programs, which while nice, always seem a bit baroque and overdone to me. That's nothing against her as a skater, as you say she was pretty impressive which is partly why people loved her cop-driven programs while simultaneously bashing Evan for doing the same. They seem dated to me though, designed to a specific set or rules of a specific period and not timeless classics.
     
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  16. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    ITA. Also I think the reason Evan gets bashed sometimes is he played the game so smart and well he won some of the major titles over others perceived to be more talented than him. Joannie never won a World or Olympic event, and didnt medal until nearly the end of her career, so she fit the loveable underdog role to people. If she were as good a competitor as Evan she probably could have had a similar career minus the Olympic Gold, and wouldnt be nearly as possible and much more critiqued than she is today as weird as that is.
     
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  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IMO? joannie was clearly underscored especially in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006. She did good CoP programs, and should have been marked higher than she was, especially in PCS (SS, Choreography, Interpretation...).
     
  18. bumblebeevich

    bumblebeevich Active Member

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    You forget in ladies skating the "skating while U.S" advantage is a much bigger one than skating while Russian. There is no country you would rather represent if you are a ladies skater than the U.S.

    Do you think Kristi with her tiny and really bad quality jumps would get 5.8s or 5.9s technically even when she falls (eg- 92 Olympics) if she were not American? Do you think a skater of the talent level of Holly Cook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdOydZDArMg would be a World medalist if she were from any country besides the U.S, even Russia? Do you think a skater of the talent level of Jill Trenary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It6Fp7cbq6M would become a World Champ if she were representing any country but the U.S, even Russia? Do you think there is anyway in a million years Kwan still wins the 96 worlds if she is Chinese and Chen American and the defending champion as an American, and both do the exact same skates? Or for that matter if Chen were any power country (France, Canada, Japan, Russia, U.S, Italy, many others) she probably also easily wins the 93 worlds and 94 Olympics where she was only 3rd too even with the exact same skates, but that is going off topic. Do you think if say Kwan and Yu Na Kim switch Nationalities Kwan wins anymore than 2 worlds as a Korean, maybe not even that (I think Kwan deserved more than 2 probably but being Korean or Chinese she is certain to win less than deserved now) and Kim probably wins atleast 5 now, not only the 2008 and 2011 Worlds which she was robbed of winning and never loses being from any power country anyway, but probably getting 1 or 2 others like 2007 worlds and/or 2010 worlds she didnt deserve to boot? Or if Kim were American instead of Korean there is any chance at all she still loses the 2014 Olympic Gold to Sotnikova, even with the Russia politics? Do you think Hamill easily wins the 76 Olympics even with weaker compulsory figres, and still even though she is the only person in the top 5 who isnt even trying triples which women began doing in the mid 60s? Maybe she still wins them but probably barely, or probably no longer being American pushes herself to do a triple or two which she easily had the athletic ability to do, since her aumtoatic American lady political buffer that combines with her edge in spins and other things is now gone.

    The examples could go on forever really but you get the idea. Any skating while Russia edge in ladies is eclipsed by an even bigger skating while American one. In pairs and dance you would rather be a Russian than American politically many times over. In ladies or mens, especialy ladies, you slightly prefer being American if you get the choice.
     
  19. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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  20. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Well-Known Member

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    On the comment about "better" skater, define whether that means has shown in competition to do more difficult and artistic and quality elements or can do same on a given night in a specific competition and earn one of the top prizes over the other competitors. In sport, it is the latter. Potential is only potential unless taken to the maximum of one's capabilities in a competition.
     
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  21. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

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    Joannie often left her best at Nationals. That and not having a reliable 3/3 (plus triples in general) cost her.
     
  22. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I don't understand this entire thread! Best to go back & reminisce about Elizabeth Manley or Josée Chouinard! :cheer2: :scream: :rolleyes:
     
  23. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

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    That is not to say she wasn't as good a skater. She just wasn't "consistently consistent".

    P.S. She was still more consistent than Josee :p
     
  24. bumblebeevich

    bumblebeevich Active Member

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    Manley was even more inconsistent than Josee but unlike Joannie and Josee she could beat everyone when she was on. Joannie wasnt good enough to beat say Yu Na Kim even when at her best.
     
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  25. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    Her LP from Nationals 2010 easily wins her the silver in Vancouver given all the other performances. She often would fare better at Olympics or Worlds with her Nationals LP, although she often messed up the short at Nationals but usually hit the short in big international meets.
     
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  26. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    Joannie had a combination late in her program in the 2009/2010 season - it was a 2A-2A sequence. At the Olys she only did one of them. Although the landing was clean I guess she didn't land in exactly the way she needed to tack on the second 2A. I saw it live. I couldn't believe it when the marks came up. If she'd done the second 2A she'd have beaten Mao for the silver medal. I was always disappointed for her about that, though probably no one else ever even noticed it except her.
     
  27. SkateFanBerlin

    SkateFanBerlin Well-Known Member

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    Godzilla or Laurent Tobel?
     
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  28. Areski

    Areski Well-Known Member

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    In 6.0 - Michelle wins 90% of time - I do wonder what was their actual head to head?
    In COP / IJS - 60% chance for Michelle - 40% for Joannie. I do feel though that Joannie was regularly underscored in early days of COP.
     
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  29. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    I think Joannie was underscored since she was inconsistent, so she didnt earn enough respect of the judges even for her better skates. Judges love consistent skaters, it is why Radionova was overscored in 2015-2016 when her consistency was going super strong, and Medvedeva and Miyahara are both being overscored today. And if Kwan was overscored it is for the same reason, she build consistency to make the judges respect and love her skating that much more.

    I was completely shocked how her short program was scored at the 2005 worlds though. She had a ton of buzz after her Canadian Nationals performance as a possible gold contender at worlds then her clean short is placed 10th below Poykio, Fumie with a fall, and others, while Irina Slutskaya wins the short with 2 major errors over clean Cohen, clean Kwan, clean Kostner with a triple-triple. There she bombed the Q round though, so that might be another example, she still isnt convincing the judges of her consistency to gain respect.
     
  30. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Well-Known Member

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    I have a soft spot for Josee after that debacle in Lillehammer! Why should she have been penalized for Harding's BS drama? She was gifted a title later on to make up for it though! I seem to remember one of those Pro/Am Canadian Opens and Chinard was falling all over the place, but for some reason she won the title over Michelle Kwan! The confusion was real and the commentators had to dream up a reason how it happened; Sandra Bezic's so F.O.S.! I can't stand her; esp. when talking about the skating of Surya Bonaly! The woman's terribly insulting, bigoted, and rude! :wall: :revenge: :scream: - - - - Update: The event was 2000 Sears Canadian Open! - - - -
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017