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Michelle Kwan vs. Joannie Rochette - who wins?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sugar, Apr 3, 2008.

  1. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    the thread is stupid because there isn't even a minimal pretense at objectivism even in the question itself. Who wins, one of the sports legends and most highly decorated, or a skater with one sentimental feel good story win on home ice? :lol: why not who wins in a fight, superman or jimmy Olsen?

    Much as I love yuna, not only did she "give away" countless championships she should have won on paper in a way Sonja never would have, but last time I checked, one of these ladies inspired an entire continent to become two of the the sport's 3 biggest powers. The other did a few tv commercials.

    Who wins, the brave pioneer who overcame blatant prejudice and humiliated her humiliators and almost single handedly created the ladies event, or a one hit wonder with one of the sports most controversial wins steeped in accusations of corruption and drug use? Is pointing out that Madge didn't have a 3/3 really what passes for "objective thinking" these days?

    Was Hanyu the first to land a 3x followed up by being the first to land a quad thus changing the sport? He's not the youngest to win the olys, we'll see if he'll be only the second to win 2 in post war history, but he's already lost the "undefeated for 5 years" battle.
     
  2. Rina RUS

    Rina RUS Well-Known Member

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    :) Thank you very much. I've watched. I like "Concierto de Aranjuez" (many movements in it look unusual for me) and "Notre-Dame de Paris" (Rochette is graceful in it).
     
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  3. Rina RUS

    Rina RUS Well-Known Member

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    :) I only mean, that it is strange to say, that the first of these two is better, because the second used her coach. (as if the first athlete learned the coach to be a good coach) Though of course, all of us learn from each other, the coach is learning too...
     
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  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It's true that Henie benefited from :bribe: and Skating While Norwegian, but even so, the choice is clear. :judge:

    Sonia!!!!!! :cheer:

    As if
    Sotnikova could ever have finished second in the Men's competition at Worlds! :rolleyes: Her best finish ever in the Ladies competition at Worlds was ninth! Ninth! :blah:

    Madge!!!!! :cheer2:

    And, like duh, Dick Button! :duh: (y)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  5. Simone411

    Simone411 I'm Clippy and I'm an Ashleyholic

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    How about Yuna Kim and Michelle Kwan since they were both friends and had that show in 2010 in Los Angeles at the Staples Center.

    Yuna & Michelle perform to Hero from All That Skate. :D
     
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  6. angelflies

    angelflies Well-Known Member

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    Michelle said Adelina deserved her gold in Sochi over Yu Na which is like a slap in the face to both Yu Na and Carolina who both extremely obviously crushed Sotnikova. I doubt they are friends anymore even if they were in 2010.
     
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  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Yuna Kim harbors as much resentment as her fans do to make a big deal out of a comment like saying Adelina deserved to win under this system. From what I remember, Kwan was careful to say which performance she preferred and used the system as a way to say it was a fair result. Obviously, you can disagree with Kwan's analysis of who should have won under the system.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  8. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Not that crazy at all. I thought Adelina was amazing in Sochi and she most definitely had a case for gold. When I did my scoring project last year the result was Yuna-Carolina-Adelina, but our scores were very close between the top 3.

    http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2016/10/well-be-judge-of-that-2014-sochi.html

    Adelina skated very well and had a case for gold.
     
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  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    That was obviously a PC answer to a touchy subject. Classy people don't stir the pot needlessly. Has Yuna ever said outright that Adelina didn't deserve to win? Doubt it. Again, classy people don't stir the pot needlessly...
     
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  10. falling_dance

    falling_dance Coaching Patrick

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    Belita! :cheer:
     
  11. Simone411

    Simone411 I'm Clippy and I'm an Ashleyholic

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    Thank you for your very honest observation, @kwanatic , and I totally agree with you. It's not even part of Michelle's character to make a crass comment such as that. Yes and she's classy, too. :respec:
     
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  12. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't. It applied to Slutskaya numerous times, in numerous venues. Remember Dick Button's comment at 2002 Worlds as to whether Michelle had a shot at gold? "Not with this panel."
     
  13. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Wow!!! All the incorporated dance positions and fluid style we have come to expect from modern skaters but with an ever so slight touch of the Art Deco Bent Limbs of pre-1970s skating.
     
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  14. Rina RUS

    Rina RUS Well-Known Member

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    :)? Maybe you are just a little bit too serious? Nothing will happen to any of them, if we just say: "they both win". Is there anything bad about such words, even if these words sound funny? :)

    Thank you! Anyway Adelina is also a human being. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  15. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I am being too serious. But with everything that's going on right now, perhaps you are being too lienient.

    The original poster couldn't even be bothered to explain the topic they were introducing. It's just two names followed by a two word questions that explains nothing about what exactly is being asked. Is this really an exceptable standard for communication in society today? A cryptic blurb open to multiple interpretations is ok as a debate topic? Maybe I'm just getting old, but this makes me sad.

    And people saying that a one time world silver medalist is a superior skater to one who made 12 world teams, landing on the podium 9 times with 5 wins, 3 silvers and a bronze is just too #alternativefacts for my taste. One can say Claiborne Pell was a superior politician to President Lincoln all they want, and no, no one will die, but it does tarnish the reputation of a hero and make propaganda acceptable as equal to facts.
     
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  16. Areski

    Areski Active Member

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    Somehow people are still able to bring Yuna-Adelina Sochi into every topic it seems.
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you don't have standing to be so sanctimonious.
     
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  18. Rina RUS

    Rina RUS Well-Known Member

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    My favourite skater is not a competitive athlete for many years. He is so old, that he has no reasons to worry. He doesn't care about his reputation.
    (Of course, this is my problem, not somebody's else.)

    I think I still cheer for my country or for some other athletes, yet... I don't care too much. As for Sotnikova, for example, I don't dare to say, that she is the one who deserved the gold. Yet I am grateful, when some people support her or when people who speak about this medal are patient, at least. That's all.
    :) I don't understand who was the original poster. Now the first comment is new (this year, not 2008)...
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    gisele23, regardless if you like Slutskaya's skating or not, and I myself was far from a fan of her skating style, she has had virtually no controversials wins or medals in her career. Yes her scores at times might have been a bit high, but that certainly applies to many others, such as her arch rival Michelle Kwan- for instance 90% of the so called perfect 6.0s she got at Nationals which were tossed out to her at candy anytime she simply did a pretty good skate and cheapened the few legitimate ones she got such as the 98 Nationals. Such as Yu Na Kim and some of her unneccessarily high and bloated numbers in events she would have won clearly anyway (eg- her 150 in Vancouver which back then was an unthinkable score, among many other examples), and today the same starting to apply to Medvedeva (oops shouldnt mention her, she is an eville Russian).

    You reference the 2002 worlds, but Slutskaya's win at the 2002 worlds was unquestionable. The LP of the 2002 worlds could have gone either way between Kwan and Slutskaya, they basically skated the same. Even if you give Kwan the LP of the 2002 worlds she still loses, there is no question both won their Q rounds. There is no question of Slutskaya winning the short program, and no question Kwan stepping out of her combination was rightly placed 3rd behind Suguri's excellent short program. And putting anyone besides possibly Kwan over Slutskaya in the LP would be laughable, which is the only way Kwan could have possibly won, so ulimately Slutskaya was the unquestioned winner of the event. Slutskaya's win at the 2005 worlds was also unquestioned, and pretty much all of her 6 world medals were, the only on you could even slightly question was her bronze at the 96 worlds over Butyrskaya, another Russian.

    Basically her entire career she has had a grand total of 2 significant controverisal wins/results. Her win at the 2001 Grand Prix final, but even here she had a big lead and had the final long program been scored: 1)Hughes (landed 7 triples including a triple-triple), 2)Kwan (skated pretty well with 6 triples and just fell at the end), 3) Slutskaya, the final results would have still had Slutskaya winning, so there is a case for her winning even here as long as she didnt win the final free program which was the only ridiculous aspect. And her other of course was 2000 NHK where she beat....oh yeah again Maria Butyrskaya, another Russian. So it seems her most controversial results of all were in unfairly beating another Russian, negating the whole Russian concept in the first place since it is Russian vs Russian.

    Have a nice day. PS- hopefully you arent one of the Yu Na bots sending poor Adelina death threats for being the eville Russian who beat your queen at the Sochi Olympics.
     
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  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    NVM.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  21. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I took one performance by season :
    2004 Worlds LP : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S-f7RdzcPc
    2004 TEB LP : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrw2MePZ930
    2006 Olympics LP : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ngRxrvuAoM
    2006 Skate Canada LP (I love this one !) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhAlRkvZiDE
    2008 Worlds SP : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8iFpK9JV3Y
    2009 Worlds SP : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyjfqsNdjv4
    2010 Olympics SP (WOW) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clw0TG8jIxs
     
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  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    kwanatic, thanks so much for your blog and breakdown of your scoring of the 2014 ladies event. I enjoyed reading it and pretty much agree. I am not even saying I neccessarily had Adelina winning either, but her win wasnt ridiculous, and at worst she would have been a close 3rd. I think it was the perfect storm of being an eville Russian (as this thread and comments by giselle and some others prove many skating fans just automatically dump on Russian skaters for being Russian), skating in Russia, not being as popular as Julia who in reality is an inferior skater to Adelina but who was the sports new darling, and people wanting the record breaking Yu Na 2nd Olympic, that led to such an unfair and over the top reaction to it all. That plus hugging one of the most corrupt and worst judges in skating history backstage and having the bad luck of that photo snapped. Who knows such a simple thing would come back to haunt her further.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    kwanatic, thanks so much for your blog and breakdown of your scoring of the 2014 ladies event. I enjoyed reading it and pretty much agree. I am not even saying I neccessarily had Adelina winning either, but her win wasnt ridiculous, and at worst she would have been a close 3rd. I think it was the perfect storm of being an eville Russian (as this thread and comments by giselle and some others prove many skating fans just automatically dump on Russian skaters for being Russian), skating in Russia, not being as popular as Julia who in reality is an inferior skater to Adelina but who was the sports new darling, and people wanting the record breaking Yu Na 2nd Olympic, that led to such an unfair and over the top reaction to it all. That plus hugging one of the most corrupt and worst judges in skating history backstage and having the bad luck of that photo snapped. Who knows such a simple thing would come back to haunt her further.
     
  24. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    They should be so lucky to be part of arguments as intense as Potzche VS Fratianne, G/G VS M/D, Baiul VS Kerrigan, Lipinski VS Kwan . . . :psoty:
     
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  25. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    By that logic Anna Rechnio would be a better skater than both Rochette and Kwan. More powerful, more speed, and higher jumps than both, while still being graceful. Even Elena Liashenko that would apply to, more speed and power than both Rochette and Kwan, and higher jumps than Kwan and atleast as high as Rochette, minus the graceful too part in her case. Obviously you are going to have to do better than that. Are you from Canada (Rochette's country) by chance?
     
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    ?????? Rechnio graceful ??????
    ?????? Liashenko big jumps ???????
    Well, I probably have to rewatch them ;)
     
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  27. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    Liashenko does have big jumps. Not Rechnio or Sebeysten or even Slutskaya level big, but big enough, probably bigger than Kwan's, and maybe comparable to Rochette's. She stalks them horribly going in and her technique on many of them is goofy, flawed, and awful to look at, but the height is quite good. And obviously she has lots of speed.

    Rechnio in addition to her amazing speed and huge jumps, is quite graceful, especialy for such a huge women. Rewatch her best skates in 98 and 99 for instance.

    I was just using them as an example to showcase the silliness IMO of saying someone is a better skater since they have higher jumps and skate with more speed and power, the reason previous poster had for thinking Rochette is better at her peak than Kwan That was all. I purposely chose skaters who werent that good at all such as the Elena freaking Liashenko to just highlight the silliness of that logic was all.
     
  28. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    And what reason would there be to rank Michelle above Joannie if they were at their peak? Personally, I always found Michelle quite dull. Joannie's skating was more exciting to me. And I listed more than just speed and power - I said that she combined those things with grace. Her overall skating to me was more engaging. That paired with the power makes me prefer Joannie. And to be fair, I did start my initial quote by saying this was 'personally'. I knew my opinion would not fit with most. It's just who I would rank above.
     
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  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Apparently there is at least one other reason some held such a strong performance in suspicion. Although, I think the biggest tragedy to skating was the score inflation in PCS that ruined the objectivity of the IJS starting in the team event, in which Adelina did not participate.
     
  30. CoolGuy

    CoolGuy Well-Known Member

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    I was always under the impression that Kwan was actually a lot faster than how she appeared on television/youtube...
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
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